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Today's Topics:
1. Re: More default.xex stuff (Dan)
2. Re: Hello (Scott Tillman)
3. Re: Concept Designs (shai-tan shai-tan)
4. Re: emulator (shai-tan shai-tan)
5. RE: Hello (Bruce Boettjer)
6. Re: Game DVD formats (smo)
7. Re: emulator (Wesley Moore)
8. Re: Game DVD formats (Sargun Dhillon)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:00:05 -0800
From: Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] More default.xex stuff
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:13:28 -0800
Dan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
... Hopefully it will be possible to plug a 360's HD
in a (SATA-capable) computer, put specially crafted files on, and get
the 360 to use it. E.g. a movie clip that exploits a yet-to-be-found
buffer overflow/other vulnerability.
Hmm outsmarted again. Apparently they do some kind of 'secure
hashing'. No executable stacks. Hopefully I'll be a bit more informed
before I post again.
Dan
--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "Scott Tillman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Hello
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:36:33 -0500
Bruce Boettjer wrote:
Just a quick note to introduce myself and say 'Hi' to folks already here.
It is my understanding that the '360 uses 970FX cores licensed from IBM. I
designed and implemented IBM's reference design for the 970FX (Maple)
[<SNIP>]
Hello Bruce, thanks for stopping by. Previous experience with this chipset
cannot hurt. My understanding is that the XBOX360's cores are custom, but I
would imagine that the changes were as minimal as possible, to save both
engineering and debugging time.
Since most of us know very little about the internals of the core
processors, can you give us a basic overview of the boot process? Details
like where code execution starts and how interrupts vectors are located can
be of great assistance. I'm also interested to find out whether this
processor has an integrated MMU and, if so, what its capabilities are. I
believe there is a version of linux built for platforms not supporting
virtual memory, but most standard versions rely on paging hardware for a
number of features.
Again, thanks for any details that you can provide.
Segin wrote:
Who cares for NDAs? We'll just pretend we got it from an "outside source"
;)
Reverse Engineering is a fact of life. Another fact is that businesses
invest money bringing a product to market in the hope that it will make more
money than it cost to develop. R.E. virtually garantees that the lifetime
of a product is fairly short (18 months at best). Businesses *must* make
every effort to protect the investment for as long as possible. I can
single handedly ruin a products chances of success by leaking detailed
designs and/or prototypes at the right time.
I like the open source model. I think its a brave way to go about doing
your business...the extension of the "publish or parish" methodology from
most universities. However, that isn't the only valid way.
I only bring this up because when someone like Bruce offers to help with a
project like this it can be somewhat intimidating. It is difficult
separating the protected information from the unprotected information. It
is worse when he feels like any slip up will be taken advantage of without
any regard to his career.
So, the point is this: comments like "Who cares for NDAs?" are just like
saying "Who cares about your career?"
Is that really what you wanted to say to Bruce after such a kind offer of
assistance?
-SpeedBump
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:33:36 +1300
From: shai-tan shai-tan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Concept Designs
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That may be so. But at least make sure it nothing plain. Plain stuff is
boring.
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That may be so. But at least make sure it nothing plain. Plain stuff is bor=
ing.<br>
------=_Part_28136_1522732.1133246016127--
--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:36:59 +1300
From: shai-tan shai-tan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] emulator
------=_Part_28144_22401431.1133246219271
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Well there is a new technique for Decryption. Faster than rainbow crack and
better than bruteforce. But seriously it would be stupid to believe it was
some common encryption M$ used.
Still its worth looking into just for the knowledge alone.
Shai-tan
On 11/29/05, Sheldon Neuberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, if anyone needs it I have my 2100+ here... lol
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:20:32 -0500, George Jenkins
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
PS: I can't remember the length of key they used for the first Xbox but
I think I remeber reading somewhere it would take the age of the known
universe with the world combined computing power to break it.
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Well there is a new technique for Decryption. Faster than rainbow crack
and better than bruteforce. But seriously it would be stupid to believe
it was some common encryption M$ used.<br>
Still its worth looking into just for the knowledge alone.<br>
<br>
Shai-tan<br>
<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/29/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sen=
dername">Sheldon Neuberger</b> <<a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">n=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">
Well, if anyone needs it I have my 2100+ here... lol<br><br>On Mon, 28 Nov =
2005 21:20:32 -0500, George Jenkins<br><<a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
canterbury.ac.nz">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a>> wrote:<br><br>>=
[snip]
<br>> PS: I can't remember the length of key they used for the first Xbo=
x but<br>> I think I remeber reading somewhere it would take the age of =
the known<br>> universe with the world combined computing power to break=
it.
<br><br><br>-------------------------------------------------------<br>This=
SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files<br=
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eforge.net">Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br><a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://li=sts.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel">"https://li=
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------=_Part_28144_22401431.1133246219271--
--__--__--
Message: 5
From: "Bruce Boettjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Scott Tillman'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: RE: [Free60-Devel] Hello
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:45:44 -0800
Scott,
Thanks for the understanding... it is appreciated. I am a large proponent
(tech-vangelist) of IBM's 64-bit technology, from POWER4 through CELL, as I
really do believe it is the best thing since sliced-bread.
There are some extreme sensitivities to some of the information... as
anything that can affect stock price tends to send folks to jail. I don't
want to go to jail.
'nuff said.
For a 970 primer, you can go to www.970Eval.com and either download data
sheets and/or go to the online forums (sorry, you have to register to see
them) for some discussion on how 970 boots. I will briefly describe it
here.
This is from memory at 10:30 at night... so don't sue me if it's not
completely correct.
1. Power-on, set PLL pins, set input clock speed, wait for PLL lock.
2. Send mode-ring. This is 1700+ bits, sent serially over I2C, that do
things like set the boot-address, HID register bits, hypervisor mode, etc...
3. Let the Tx & Rx Bus Interface Units train and converge.
4. Set special bits that speak to erratum and processor ID.
5. Setup SDRAM memory controller
6. Enumerate boot path
7. Lift RESET and let processor assert boot-vector that was set in
mode-ring.
My thoughts with the '360 are that there is a Service Processor
microcontroller on-board the silicon, and that it, Digital ID Tags, the Mode
Ring as well as the Boot Flash are programmed over JTAG at manufacturing,
using those soldered-in holes next to the processor... Could someone look at
these holes with a microscope to see if maybe it was done by flying-probe?
They leave small pin-like indentations in the solder.
There are a few ways to skin this cat if this is indeed the case, and the
key resides in either R.E. the mode ring to redirect the boot vector, or
figuring out the correct sequence of accesses to be able to R/W Boot Flash
over JTAG.
MMU - There would be no cache and subsequently no threading if there were no
MMU present. If my assumption is correct, that this is indeed a POWER4 core
with a custom bus interface unit, than full MMU capabilities would be
present... 42-bits physical address, 64-bit virtual address, etc... I can
forsee no reasons for disabling this built-in feature of the architecture...
Interrupt Vectors - Boot Vector is set through Mode-Ring. It can point
anywhere in 64-bit space. All other vectors are set (usually) in either the
head or tail of the binary... look at PowerPC GNU for 64-bit.
I am unsure of where the memory controller resides... If it is off the CPU,
then the BIU is modified to do cache coherency across 3 CPUs (no simple feat
in 970 speak...), something normally done in the 'North-Bridge'. I ask
because there are potential exploits here, if the memory controller is
separate from the CPU.
Regards,
Bruce Boettjer
Sr Hardware Design Engineer
Momentum Computer
1815 Aston Ave
Suite 107
Carlsbad, CA 92008
(760)-431-8663
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Scott Tillman
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:37 PM
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Hello
Bruce Boettjer wrote:
Just a quick note to introduce myself and say 'Hi' to folks already here.
It is my understanding that the '360 uses 970FX cores licensed from IBM. I
designed and implemented IBM's reference design for the 970FX (Maple)
[<SNIP>]
Hello Bruce, thanks for stopping by. Previous experience with this chipset
cannot hurt. My understanding is that the XBOX360's cores are custom, but I
would imagine that the changes were as minimal as possible, to save both
engineering and debugging time.
Since most of us know very little about the internals of the core
processors, can you give us a basic overview of the boot process? Details
like where code execution starts and how interrupts vectors are located can
be of great assistance. I'm also interested to find out whether this
processor has an integrated MMU and, if so, what its capabilities are. I
believe there is a version of linux built for platforms not supporting
virtual memory, but most standard versions rely on paging hardware for a
number of features.
Again, thanks for any details that you can provide.
Segin wrote:
Who cares for NDAs? We'll just pretend we got it from an "outside source"
;)
Reverse Engineering is a fact of life. Another fact is that businesses
invest money bringing a product to market in the hope that it will make more
money than it cost to develop. R.E. virtually garantees that the lifetime
of a product is fairly short (18 months at best). Businesses *must* make
every effort to protect the investment for as long as possible. I can
single handedly ruin a products chances of success by leaking detailed
designs and/or prototypes at the right time.
I like the open source model. I think its a brave way to go about doing
your business...the extension of the "publish or parish" methodology from
most universities. However, that isn't the only valid way.
I only bring this up because when someone like Bruce offers to help with a
project like this it can be somewhat intimidating. It is difficult
separating the protected information from the unprotected information. It
is worse when he feels like any slip up will be taken advantage of without
any regard to his career.
So, the point is this: comments like "Who cares for NDAs?" are just like
saying "Who cares about your career?"
Is that really what you wanted to say to Bruce after such a kind offer of
assistance?
-SpeedBump
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
-------------------------------------------------------
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--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:08:33 +0200
From: smo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Game DVD formats
Hi,
Wasn't that Gamecube thing "discs are burned in the opposite
direction" proved to be complete bulls**t? I'd have to make check my
Gamecube, but as far as I know, with the modchips for it today, it
eats plain mini-DVD-R or regular DVD-R media (with a modded case).
What I'm interested in is in solid technical details - not vague
references to "physical errors".
On 29/11/05, Devlin McMillan-Cashman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just a throwback to the original question a tidbit about that. As Darren
said, there's lots of ways. Just doing a diff type of error correcting o=
r
such can change it. Pretty much if it's non-standard ISO format it's not
going to play. Also you can just have it physically diffrent. For examp=
le
gamecube games (besides being non-standard media in the first place) spin
backwards and all data is written inversely to how a normal CD is written=
.
All PS2 games are pressed at the end of the production line in china. Th=
ey
have physical imperfections in the disk that the ps2 reads and won't play=
if
they don't have those imperfections. Just things that you can't copy
without very specialized machinery (that you can't get).
On 11/28/05, Segin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
smo wrote:
Hi,
What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render
them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD
characteristics,
don't they?
I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague
suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a
second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say
if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart
>from an original disc?
-smo
How can a CD-RW drive determine a CD-R from a CD-RW? It's the disc
substrate material. It refelects different light fequencies, which make=
s
all the difference. You may want to try the original type of DVD-R from
the late 90's.
-------------------------------------------------------
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--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:12:59 +1100
From: Wesley Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] emulator
I have a dual CPU Power Mac G5 if I can be of use to anyone. Although
I imagine that is unlikely given the fact that it's already been
pointed out that the executable format is obviously different to OS X
or Linux.
On 11/29/05, Sheldon Neuberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Perhaps someone has access to a machine with PowerPC architecture?
WM
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 04:12:27 +0000
From: Sargun Dhillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Free60-Devel] Game DVD formats
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
Well you can get it can't you? Its just very large and expensive. They may
also sign the beginnning second session with a digital signature. This mean=
s
we cannot alter the disk unless we can sign a new disk.
On 11/29/05, Devlin McMillan-Cashman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just a throwback to the original question a tidbit about that. As Darren
said, there's lots of ways. Just doing a diff type of error correcting o=
r
such can change it. Pretty much if it's non-standard ISO format it's not
going to play. Also you can just have it physically diffrent. For examp=
le
gamecube games (besides being non-standard media in the first place) spin
backwards and all data is written inversely to how a normal CD is written=
.
All PS2 games are pressed at the end of the production line in china. Th=
ey
have physical imperfections in the disk that the ps2 reads and won't play=
if
they don't have those imperfections. Just things that you can't copy
without very specialized machinery (that you can't get).
On 11/28/05, Segin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
smo wrote:
Hi,
What's so special about current game console DVD formats that render
them uncopyable on a PC? They do contain somewhat standard DVD
characteristics,
don't they?
I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vague
suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on a
second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD (say
if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apart
>from an original disc?
-smo
How can a CD-RW drive determine a CD-R from a CD-RW? It's the disc
substrate material. It refelects different light fequencies, which make=
s
all the difference. You may want to try the original type of DVD-R from
the late 90's.
-------------------------------------------------------
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--
Sargun Dhillon
Chief Information Officer
Tajay Restaurants Inc.
(925)-209-7312
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Content-Disposition: inline
Well you can get it can't you? Its just very large and expensive. They
may also sign the beginnning second session with a digital signature.
This means we cannot alter the disk unless we can sign a new disk.<br><br><=
div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/29/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Devlin McMillan-Cashman</b> <<a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">alte=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-lef=
t: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1=
ex;">Just a throwback to the original question a tidbit about that. A=
s
Darren said, there's lots of ways. Just doing a diff type of
error correcting or such can change it. Pretty much if it's
non-standard ISO format it's not going to play. Also you can just
have it physically diffrent. For example gamecube games (besides
being non-standard media in the first place) spin backwards and all
data is written inversely to how a normal CD is written. All PS2
games are pressed at the end of the production line in china.
They have physical imperfections in the disk that the ps2 reads and
won't play if they don't have those imperfections. Just things
that you can't copy without very specialized machinery (that you can't
get).
<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_107da09c77bbdb87_1"><br><br><div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/28/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Segin</b> <<=
a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" target=3D"_blank" t=
op.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
smo wrote:<br><br>>Hi,<br>><br>>What's so special about current ga=
me console DVD formats that render<br>>them uncopyable on a PC? They do =
contain somewhat standard DVD<br>>characteristics,<br>>don't they?
<br>><br>>I've tried researching this topic and all I came up was vag=
ue<br>>suggestions about the discs having a fake TOC and a proper TOC on=
a<br>>second layer. If I were to make a bit-for-bit copy of a game DVD =
(say
<br>>if a PC DVD drive could do that), how would the console tell it apa=
rt<br>>from an original disc?<br>><br>>-smo<br>><br>><br>How=
can a CD-RW drive determine a CD-R from a CD-RW? It's the disc<br>substrat=
e material. It refelects different light fequencies, which makes
<br>all the difference. You may want to try the original type of DVD-R from=
<br>the late 90's.<br><br><br>---------------------------------------------=
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<br>for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search =
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r>_______________________________________________<br>Free60-devel mailing l=
ist<br><a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net">"mailto:Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk" top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Free60-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
</a><br><a href="" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-deve=l">"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-deve=
l" target=3D"_blank" top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this=
)">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/free60-devel</a><br></block=
quote>
</div><br>
</span></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Sargun Dhi=
llon<br>Chief Information Officer<br>Tajay Restaurants Inc.<br>(925)-209-73=
12
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