# Removing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> from the recipient list.  This isn't
# really a thread about marketing or promoting FreeBSD, so it's a bit
# off-topic for that list.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:01:03 +0200, "Redd Vinylene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:31:22 +0200, "Redd Vinylene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Why can't I make world without the "games" group? I run a serious
>>> server, not a kindergarten ;)
>>>
>>> I don't want the games group there, I just don't need it!
>>
>> Have you tried building with an src.conf file that includes:
>>
>>    WITHOUT_GAMES='yes'
>>
>> It' not a matter of `kindergarten or not', but a matter of providing a
>> predictable `base system' by default and all the knob and documentation
>> to customize it at will.  That's why you can find a lot of customization
>> options in the manpage of src.conf(5).
>
> Hello hello!
> Yeah I actually tried that, but I got the same error.

Ok, this may be a bug in the makefiles then.  My apologies if you have
already written all that.  I caught the email thread some time after it
started, and I replied while being offline on a trip.

A few bits of information which may help us track down what you are
seeing and try to reproduce it are:

  * Which branch/version of the source tree are you building?

  * How did you build everything?

    Please list all the command line options, any environment variables
    and any `make.conf' or `src.conf' options you are using.

  * What was the _exact_ error message you saw?

I have just fired up a buildworld + buildkernel run of 8.0-CURRENT here,
to see if I can reproduce this.  The build runs with:

    # export WITHOUT_GAMES=yes
    # mv /usr/games /usr/games.old
    # rm -fr /usr/src/games

AFAIK, this should work fine, but I will have to wait a bit for the
build to finish and report back.  I'll post my results in a couple of
hours, because that's roughly how long it takes for my laptop to go
through a full build & install run.

In the meantime, if you can repeat the build and email us with the
branch, the source version, the environment you used to build and the
last 200-300 lines of the error messages you are getting (the full build
log would be even better), it would be quite useful as an extra bit of
info to track down what is broken for you.  With a bit of help from you,
to test-build everything and report back with any findings, I'm sure we
can at least understand what's different in your local setup :-)

> I don't see why the FreeBSD team has to insist on keeping this, pardon
> my language, bullshit. If some sorry guy actually needs this, why
> can't he load it as a module, or install a port?

Insist on keeping what?  The fortune cookies and `/usr/src/games'?

I don't think anyone insists on *forcing* you to use something you don't
want to have around.  That's precisely the idea behind WITHOUT_GAMES and
similar options.  If it doesn't work, we'll fix it.  If it does work, on
the other hand, we have to find out how to make it work for you too.

> To quote some Frenchman: "Perfection is achieved, not when there's
> nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away."

This is one of the nice quotes of Antoine de Saint Exupery, but in our
case perfection is also achieved when FreeBSD empowers you to choose the
bits that _you_ want to keep.  As a team we value the freedom `to pick
and choose' and providing a reference body of source code that others
can use under the friendly terms of the BSD license is an explicit goal
of the Project as a whole.

We also understand that it is often very difficult, even outright
impossible to satisfy _everyone_ with one flavor of beer, so we try to
give everyone a BSD flavored brew that seems to have worked nicely for a
lot of people and all the tools to build your own custom flavor.

> I worry slightly as I watch FreeBSD become bigger and bigger, fearing
> that some day it'll all come tumbling down!

Well, there's a very good way to avoid this.  You can *help* us keep BSD
in shape.  Reports about bugs, problems and issues like the one you are
reporting in this thread are an _excellent_ way to do that.

If nobody reports a bug, then it won't get solved...  By reporting it
and helping us track it down, find the fix and commit it to the source
tree you are doing everyone (including the FreeBSD Project and yourself)
a great service :-)

Cheers,
Giorgos

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