--- On Thu, 8/30/12, Matt Burke <mattbli...@icritical.com> wrote:
> From: Matt Burke <mattbli...@icritical.com> > Subject: Re: pkgng questions > To: "Mark Felder" <f...@feld.me> > Cc: po...@freebsd.org > Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 7:44 AM > On 08/30/12 13:01, Mark Felder > wrote: > > I think you're very confused about what pkgng is for. > At this time, ports > > are STILL the recommended way to install things and > keep them up to date. > > Really? I think the last time I compiled X or a web browser > (until using > poudriere) was about 10 years ago. > I mix packages and ports here, heavily using zsh;/var/db/pkg/;pipes;portmaster and a thumbdrive(ftp) to other machines > > > Pkgng is the first step required for us to get a better > package management > > system so we can shift the community towards primarily > using packages. > > I like packages - they save me compiling massive things on > my desktop and > they let me keep my servers running exactly the same > software built from > our CI setup. 'make package' is so quick and easy, > it'd be hard to beat. > > So I thought I'd get a grip on pkgng before pkg_* disappears > from base. > > I had a couple of questions I wanted to answer - > > 1) How easy does it make keeping my desktop (currently > releng/9.1 built > with dtrace) up-to-date > 2) How much easier will it be to maintain production and > testing servers? > > > The answer has made me start downloading an OpenIndiana > iso. > > > > >> 2. Is there a list of ports like nvidia-driver, > nspluginwrapper, > >> linux-f10-flashplugin, sampleicc (dependency of > libreoffice!) which aren't > >> in pkgng? > > > > Everything can be built into the pkgng format except a > few ports that need > > workarounds. There's a list on the wiki. > > > > http://wiki.freebsd.org/pkgng > > > > Go to the bottom "Known Failures" section. > > I don't see any of the examples I gave listed, apart from > nvidia-driver > > > >> 3. How do I force pkg to install/upgrade a single > package, regardless of > >> dependencies being out of date? > > > > You should never try to do this anyway; you'll end up > with packages built > > against the wrong versions of libraries. > > You're suggesting that I should upgrade an entire machine > which may have > proven itself over a period of years to be perfectly stable, > just because I > need a small utility which really doesn't care about the man > page typo > which caused gettext-0.1.2_3 to change to gettext-0.1.2_4? > Notable here, things which depend upon firefox; gcc46; ... > > >> 4. How do I get poudiere to build against a local > src/obj tree, or a zfs > >> snapshot of a pre-built jail, instead of > 9.0-RELEASE? > > > > The poudriere man page has all the instructions needed > to create jails of > > any release version to be used for building packages. > > No, the man page doesn't mention anything about specifying > where to pull > the distribution from, only what method of access to use. > > > > You don't do it this way. You build everything on your > poudriere server and > > push all of your packages to the client. You do this > every single time. If > > you decide you want a new package on your client, you > build it on your > > poudriere server and have your client request it. If > you're using > > poudriere/pkgng, your clients should NEVER be compiling > ports or installing > > packages outside of what your poudriere server is > providing. Poudriere is > > giving you a "cleanroom" environment where it can > guarantee that all the > > packages and their required packages/libraries are > sane. > > > Pkgng doesn't require ZFS -- poudriere does. Your > clients should never have > > poudriere. > > I am confused. If pkg_* are removed, how is a person with a > single desktop > machine (worst case, a netbook) expected to operate if they > need a specific > port build? Are they to spend a week compiling 1000+ ports > themselves in a > poudriere VM? > > Or is the flexibility of FreeBSD ports just not deemed to be > useful to the > end user (or person unable to provide a dedicated any more? > I am also perplexed; (unconvinced; ignorant...).. Waiting for a more comprehensive comparison to what exists now. And I've read the documentation thoroughly, but not enough times to fully comprehend all the strata... > > >> 8. Is there a pkgng equivalent of 'ls -lt > /var/db/pkg' without firing up > >> sqlite? > > > > Are you looking for the date column (not sure why > that's useful as it can > > change due to many things)? Doesn't "pkg info -a" > suffice? > > 'ls -lt /var/db/pkg' will show me what packages were > installed sorted by > day. It is very useful on servers which aren't routinely > upgraded to the > latest and greatest untested versions > > /var/db/pkg/ here is also indispensable, ( which I detailed precisely why in a message to the freebsd-current list, this month... ) Until I'm forced to upgrade to /pkg/ instead (I've workarounds and maybe a PR or two (feature req.) thought out...), I see this as a fork of the package registration API to something less useful to some, more useful to others (those using less ports than the number I've installed, maybe. ) > >> 9. Why didn't pkg upgrade tell me it replaced my > custom-built packages? I'd > >> have liked for it to not break stuff when > /var/db/ports/*/options differed > >> from the options I can see pkgng keeps in its > metadata... > > > > Your poudriere server can use you preferred options > when it builds > > packages. Check the man page. > > pkg2ng doesn't tell you that you're about to need another > machine Seconded. > > $ man pkg2ng > No manual entry for pkg2ng > > > > Long story short: poudriere is a tool for you to build > your OWN private > > package repositories (which is really handy!). > > It is handy IF you have the resources to maintain a > poudriere machine. > > It is handy IF you really enjoy waiting for x.org and web > browsers to compile > > It is NOT handy if you just want to build one package to be > built with > different options. In fact it makes a mockery of FreeBSD's > ease of use. > Seconded. > > > Pkgng is just the first step towards a large goal of > greatly improving > > the enduser experience with FreeBSD. > > By "improving", you mean "removing flexibility from"? Seconded. > > > > I don't believe pkgng is default on any release yet, so > you > > shouldn't be using public pkgng repositories for > anything but testing. You > > should either be running your own poudriere server or > you should just be > > using the new pkgng format with ports. > > Wait, you said "If you're using poudriere/pkgng, your > clients should NEVER > be compiling ports or installing packages outside of what > your poudriere > server is providing" > > So what is it? > > The information contained in this message is confidential > and intended for the addressee only. If you have received > this message in error, or there are any problems with its > content, please contact the sender. > > iCritical is a trading name of Critical Software Ltd. > Registered in England: 04909220. > Registered Office: IC2, Keele Science Park, Keele, > Staffordshire, ST5 5NH. > > This message has been scanned for security threats by > iCritical. www.icritical.com > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-po...@freebsd.org > mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > I find this a very difficult topic [2], sort of like debating whether FreeBSD should be forked to a FreeBSD-pc/bsd hybrid and no legacy version; complicated by the many subtopics in the ongoing discussion. It may be that I'd like the hybrid result better in the long run (more upstream repositories?) , but those that are certain pkg will be the default in a future version have not made obvious any recourse (or explanation [1]) for those (like myself) who prefer to have the choice available, at least for the minority or majority of FreeBSD users who mix packages and ports as a matter of course. [1] clearer examples of those who, for instance, should/should not install other ports additionally to /pkg/, in the manner of a flowchart incorporating all/most use cases... (usb boot? pxe? ...) [2] Newbie or something similar... J. Bouquet _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"