<URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 >

Trolling indeed, and it's not strange for Spanish radical nationalists to
deny Catalonia's nationhood. Having its own dinasty and laws for hundreds of
years, and speaking a different language even today doesn't seem to be
enough.

In fact, the wikipedia article he quotes is quite enlightening. "Countries",
in the Middle Ages, were not what we think of nowadays. With poor
communications and a weak central power, nations (as we think of them now)
were just being built. The frontiers we see in the maps are mostly what
certain dinasties ruled. It was common for a king to rule over different
nations.

What he calls the Crown of Aragon was a real thing. It started when Ramiro
II, King of Aragon, who had no male son and wanted to retire, agreed with
Ramon Berenguer IV (of Freeciv fame) to give him the hand of his
one-year-old daughter (wow!) and his kingdom. From then on, Ramon
Berenguer's Dinasty were kings of Aragon and Counts of Barcelona. The kings
lived mainly in Barcelona and Montblanc (both Catalan cities), and they had
to respect the laws of both Aragon and Catalonia. The Aragonese people
didn't speak Catalan, so they probably translated the king's name into their
language (as is their prerrogative).

When the empire expanded (notably into the Balearic Islands and the Kingdom
of Valencia), the new lands were settled by Catalan-speaking people. The
internal organization of the kingdom was confederacy-like. Majorca,
Valencia, Aragon and Catalonia were considered separate kingdoms under the
same Crown. The wikipedia states that it was a "Maritime Empire", so it's
easy to guess that the weight of the empire was not in landlocked Aragon,
although it bore its name.

As for the names of the kings, Jaume I (who is in the ruleset), and who, by
the way, would celebrate his 800th birthday this year, wrote his
autobiography. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llibre_dels_fets> As you can
see in the wikipedia, it is written in Catalan, and the name is Jacme (which
is ancient Catalan for "James").

So, the ruleset (in its original form, I haven't made any significant
changes to it) tries to reflect a very real (and powerful) medieval nation.
After the dynastic union with Castille in 1479, the four kingdoms kept their
own laws and institutions, and it wasn't until the XVIII century and the
Spanish succession war that these laws and institutions were revoked. In
fact, the Wikipedia
lists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_formation_dates>1714
as the date of birth of Spain.

So, what does the ruleset mean, historically?: the part of the Crown of
Aragon settled by Catalan-speaking people (the three maritime kingdoms:
Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands), who have thus the same
cultural background. If we added Aragonese cities (and cities like Naples,
Athens, and so on), we could have a perfectly valid "Crown of Aragon"
ruleset, that would reflect the possessions of these kings (who, again, were
based in Catalonia). Nothing against that.

The present ruleset reflects a territory with a similar culture and
language. As for territorial claims, this is quite another story. The desire
for independence from Spain exists in very different degrees in each of the
territories, so it's not likely that this ruleset will become "modern"
without any changes.

Cheers,

                              Joan

2008/1/6, Daniel Markstedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>
> <URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 >
>
> While we're on the topic, I'd like to discuss this:
> http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4216
>
> The poster is mainly trolling, but he brings up the legit question of
> whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
> ages or not. From Freeciv's nations policy: "a nation listed as
> ancient or medieval should have
> had an independent dynasty or state in ancient or medieval times
> respectively" (
>
> http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/freeciv/trunk/doc/README.nations?rev=14172&view=auto
> )
>
> I'm not well versed in Iberian history, so please educate me on the issue.
> :)
>
> ~Daniel
>
>
>

Trolling indeed, and it's not strange for Spanish radical nationalists to deny Catalonia's nationhood. Having its own dinasty and laws for hundreds of years, and speaking a different language even today doesn't seem to be enough.

In fact, the wikipedia article he quotes is quite enlightening. "Countries", in the Middle Ages, were not what we think of nowadays. With poor communications and a weak central power, nations (as we think of them now) were just being built. The frontiers we see in the maps are mostly what certain dinasties ruled. It was common for a king to rule over different nations.

What he calls the Crown of Aragon was a real thing. It started when Ramiro II, King of Aragon, who had no male son and wanted to retire, agreed with Ramon Berenguer IV (of Freeciv fame) to give him the hand of his one-year-old daughter (wow!) and his kingdom. From then on, Ramon Berenguer's Dinasty were kings of Aragon and Counts of Barcelona. The kings lived mainly in Barcelona and Montblanc (both Catalan cities), and they had to respect the laws of both Aragon and Catalonia. The Aragonese people didn't speak Catalan, so they probably translated the king's name into their language (as is their prerrogative).

When the empire expanded (notably into the Balearic Islands and the Kingdom of Valencia), the new lands were settled by Catalan-speaking people. The internal organization of the kingdom was confederacy-like. Majorca, Valencia, Aragon and Catalonia were considered separate kingdoms under the same Crown. The wikipedia states that it was a "Maritime Empire", so it's easy to guess that the weight of the empire was not in landlocked Aragon, although it bore its name.

As for the names of the kings, Jaume I (who is in the ruleset), and who, by the way, would celebrate his 800th birthday this year, wrote his autobiography. As you can see in the wikipedia, it is written in Catalan, and the name is Jacme (which is ancient Catalan for "James").

So, the ruleset (in its original form, I haven't made any significant changes to it) tries to reflect a very real (and powerful) medieval nation. After the dynastic union with Castille in 1479, the four kingdoms kept their own laws and institutions, and it wasn't until the XVIII century and the Spanish succession war that these laws and institutions were revoked. In fact, the Wikipedia lists 1714 as the date of birth of Spain.

So, what does the ruleset mean, historically?: the part of the Crown of Aragon settled by Catalan-speaking people (the three maritime kingdoms: Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands), who have thus the same cultural background. If we added Aragonese cities (and cities like Naples, Athens, and so on), we could have a perfectly valid "Crown of Aragon" ruleset, that would reflect the possessions of these kings (who, again, were based in Catalonia). Nothing against that.

The present ruleset reflects a territory with a similar culture and language. As for territorial claims, this is quite another story. The desire for independence from Spain exists in very different degrees in each of the territories, so it's not likely that this ruleset will become "modern" without any changes.

Cheers,

                              Joan

2008/1/6, Daniel Markstedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

<URL: http://bugs.freeciv.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=40001 >

While we're on the topic, I'd like to discuss this:
http://forum.freeciv.org/viewtopic.php?t=4216

The poster is mainly trolling, but he brings up the legit question of
whether the Catalonia described in our ruleset existed in the middle
ages or not. From Freeciv's nations policy: "a nation listed as
ancient or medieval should have
had an independent dynasty or state in ancient or medieval times
respectively" (
http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/freeciv/trunk/doc/README.nations?rev=14172&view=auto
)

I'm not well versed in Iberian history, so please educate me on the issue. :)

~Daniel



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