2008/7/25 Madeline Book <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>  > There was a suggestion some years(?) ago that players should have full
>>  > vision inside their borders, to offset such information leakage. I
>>  > think that is a reasonable idea.
> It might be interesting to try this out, but it does not address the
> problem that when someone finds the border edge, they get
> extra information that someone has a city near there. I realize
> this is hardly significant when playing with AIs or novice players,
> but knowning where your opponent is (and without him knowing
> that you know that) can be the difference between a win and a
> loss for two expert human players.

Sounds like a feature to me. Current Freeciv multi-player is too much
of a hide-and-seek, where the chance event of discovery of another
player while he is still busy expanding without considering defence
often decides the game. Instead of hiding players even more, we should
make it even more obvious for all players.

> There is also the issue that players can essentially see through
> the fog since border information is sent even when a tile is
> fogged. So for example they can see when a city changes owner
> by the changing of the border around the city tile.

Well, I'm not really sure why fog of war should hide city changes in
the first place. Cities are huge, and trade has in all times been
prevalent, diffusing knowledge of the immediate geography around
nations. So it is not at all strange that this information is
'leaked'. Restricting knowledge of the map strictly to a player's
vision gives the game a little too much myopia, reducing the

> This is one way it could be handled I suppose. My own idea would
> be to only send updated border information when the unit sees the
> source of that border (a city or fortress I presume). This would avoid
> the "visual mess" of partial seen borders (at least to the granularity
> of sources rather than individual tiles) and not give extra hints to
> attackers.

Then you wouldn't know that you have crossed into another player's
territory until well after the fact... This is one other reason why we
need omniscient borders: The current diplomacy model pretty much
depends on it.

  - Per

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