Vortex86 hardware (at least some of it) is also supported by a coreboot+SeaBIOS opensource BIOS (adding that to my message here - https://sourceforge.net/p/freedos/mailman/message/37785576/ ) . If you are fed up with the crappy proprietary BIOSes, this opensource one could be much more satisfying for you
ср, 8 мар. 2023 г. в 22:23, Travis Siegel <tsie...@softcon.com>: > > Thanks man, extremely helpful. Probably exactly what I've been looking > for, for years. I knew it was out there, (I'd seen reference to such > boards in industrial processes posts), but couldn't find them anywhere. > With this, I might be able to actually build a couple of the projects I > wanted to do for years now. Thanks for that. > > Very happy. > > > On 3/8/2023 4:47 AM, Frantisek Rysanek wrote: > > On 7 Mar 2023 at 23:06, Ben Hutchinson wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 7, 2023, 5:14 PM Volkert via Freedos-user > >> <freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > >>> You might look for products based on a Vortex86 SoC. Those have > >>> a legacy BIOS and can boot MS-DOS and older Windows versions > >>> and such. > >>> [ + a link to the Vogons forum, which has links to ICOP] > >> I'm looking for one that's mass produced, just like Arduinos and > >> Raspberry Pis are mass produced hobbyist computer boards. The only > >> problem with those is they don't support intel CPU instructions. > >> > > I'd like to second the advice given by PM Volkert: > > you should definitely take a look at the Vortex86 family, namely on > > motherboards made by ICOP, or miniature PC boxes by some other > > sibling company in the family around DMP and ICOP. > > > > Note that Vortex86, especially in the DX2 generation, is pretty close > > to machines of the 486 / Pentium era. It's got a proper, full-blown > > ISA bus straight from the SoC, and also 32bit / 33MHz PCI. > > The DX-based boards by ICOP come with an XGI Z9s graphics chip that > > has something like 32 MB of dedicated Video DRAM and is accompanied > > by a pretty good VESA BIOS, where good = decent compatibility with > > DOS-era software. It can run Windows up to XP, although for XP the > > onboard 512 MB of RAM is already hardly sufficient. Graphics drivers > > are available for the Windows 9x and NT. > > > > With the Vortex86DX, you get an AMI BIOS with APM support (no ACPI), > > with AT-style power supply control. > > The more modern Vortex variants (up to DX3, at the time of this > > writing) are faster, maybe up to on par with the early 45nm ATOM's, > > they have more RAM onboard, their BIOS adds ACPI support, but these > > newer Vortex platforms start to depart slightly from the hardcore > > "oldtimer DOS experience". > > > > Vortex86 by DMP / ICOP is the last remaining supporter of the DOS > > era. You won't buy any other new hardware with a comparable set of > > old-skool features. > > > > Speaking of "mass-produced"... I'm not sure to what extent you are > > aware of the functioning of the market of PC computers. > > I myself work in the "industrial PC" business, so I'm aware of this > > niche that may slip under the radar of a typical home/office PC user. > > > > The mainstream mass-produced gaming/home/office PC's have a pretty > > short product life cycle and are subject to the latest marketing > > trends and fads. A particular motherboard model is available for > > maybe a year. Say 6 months to 2 years. You get a truckload (cargo > > ship load) of a particular motherboard model produced for stock, that > > stock gets depleted in a few months and will never come back. By the > > time that batch gets depleted, a newer model is already being > > mass-produced. Etc. > > > > The industrial PC HW market is different. The customers demand > > product lifecycles that last many years, preferably forever. The > > quantities sold are minuscule, compared to the mass market. Maybe 10% > > of the mainstream market, if you summarize across a CPU generation. > > The production batches are typically much smaller, compared to the > > mass market - but, the production runs do repeat, as long as demand > > lasts, and as long as chips are available. > > > > The chip-level lifecycle is longer. The stumbling block is the CPU > > and chipset - nowadays often merged together conveniently in an SoC. > > For the embedded/IPC market, the champion in product lifecycle and > > volume sold remains Intel (not AMD). In the product pages at > > ark.intel.com, mind a note here and there saying "embedded SKU > > options available". The word "embedded" here correlates to the > > specific IPC market niche, and an extended availability, often for a > > decade or almost. > > > > Note that this IPC/embdedded motherboard market does not run along > > with the evolutionary bleeding edge: instead, it seems to pick up > > mature CPU generations as they're phased out from mainstream > > availability. Courtesy of that conservative approach, in the > > industrial x86 market you get stable silicon (already after several > > iterations of early bugfixing revisions), stable motherboard PCB > > designs (industrial ATX motherboards can actually be fine-tuned > > siblings of previous generation mainstream models), stable BIOS and > > bugfixed drivers. > > > > If I return to the arrangements of "manufacturing and > > order-processing logistics" : there are differences between > > industrial PC vendors. > > > > Generally only the biggest vendors try to keep stocks in regional > > warehouses - say Advantech is a prime example here. Advantech > > themselves appear to work with non-trivial production batches - as a > > result of which, often the particular model that you're after is not > > in stock at the very moment when you'd need it, and you have to wait > > for a few weeks for the next production run + logistics. Returning > > customers tend to calculate with these lead times. Also, chances are > > that the boards are actually in stock in a warehouse near the > > production line, and in the EU or U.S. you can pay extra to have your > > motherboard delivered directly, thus saving maybe 2-3 weeks off the > > low-cost "gravitational streaming" logistics. > > > > Several smaller vendors, typically based in Taiwan, of not only PC > > hardware but also Ethernet switches, flash SSD's, DRAM modules and > > other components, use a different model: on the verge between batch > > manufacturing and "build to order". Popular versions of their > > hardware are stocked in some reasonable quantity, but they can also > > "make to order" down to one piece = on demand, with a lead time of a > > week or two EXW. They appear to have flexible production lines that > > can assemble small runs of PCB's on demand. > > The PCB boards themselves are stocked and allow for modular assembly > > = multiple variants of a product can be made on a shared PCB design. > > This approach can give you a lead time of 2-4 weeks DAP anywhere on > > the globe, which isn't bad if you're integrating some industrial > > process control gear. Anywhere on the globe, with a product lifetime > > sometimes exceeding a decade - generally as long as chips are > > available. > > > > I've mentioned Intel as a champion of long product lifecycles on > > industrial PC chips. But I'd like to amend this. There is one > > exception, and that is: Vortex86 by the DMP of TW, and the > > motherboards by the sibling company ICOP. > > This is the actual champion of x86 PC product lifecycle duration, > > hands down. For instance, the estimated EOL for the Vortex86DX has > > been, for about a decade "as long as demand lasts, maybe 2023 but > > that's not a definitive date". > > I understand that DMP is a fabless silicon maker, having their chips > > baked and packaged by some second-tier foundries using > > older/cheaper/finetuned lithography nodes. (Did I hear UMC?) > > I.e., DMP+ICOP pretty much have their own chips. > > You may have noticed how chip shortage has affected the availability > > of the RPi, mainstream ATOM-based ITX boards, onboard car > > entertainment units, mobile phones, notebooks, printers etc. As much > > as I can tell, ICOP just kept shipping their embedded motherboards - > > if there was a shortage of some chips, it was not their SoC's. > > I don't know the details behind the scenes, but the fact is that they > > just keep marketing the most popular versions of their classic > > industrial motherboards to this date. Somehow they even have XGI/SIS > > make the discrete graphics chips for them - where the more recent > > Vortex generations have a VGA subsystem integrated on chip (where the > > VGA memory is now shared with the system RAM). > > > > Speaking of ICOP, I'd also like to mention that their "industrial > > extended temperature range" motherboards appear to run more stable > > than your mainstream average. They have a minuscule RMA rate. > > > > That said, note that the industrial/embedded PC motherboards are more > > expensive than the mainstream models. Maybe 2x-3x. What you pay for > > is the lower volume of manufacturing, the longer product lifecycle, > > the availability "on demand, within a month, forever". > > For you as a maker/integrator of some low-volume intelligent systems, > > this is the component product lifecycle that makes your business > > model viable. > > Plus you get "no frills", no consumer marketing gimmicks, long-term > > sustainable thermals, quality passive components. > > What you end up running into, with modern Windows versions, is EOL's > > on the OS. End of sales, end of security updates, end of the > > possibility to activate (solved by Windows Embedded). > > > > For serious use, if you ask my preference, and give me a choice > > between RPi and ICOP, I vote firmly for ICOP. > > Except where you need high resolution graphics with HDMI output, > > perhaps the RPi4 has more performance, the Vortex family is still > > 32bit only (no 64bit support) etc. > > > > If you really are not into the x86 PC legacy of ISA and compatibility > > with old stuff (peripherals, legacy BIOS interfaces, DOS, the > > bare-metal applications of the DOS era), my favourite choice is the > > Intel ATOM family. Right now I'm eagerly awaiting the "Alder Lake N", > > but generally anything starting from BayTrail has decent thermals / > > performance / modern features / relatively compatible graphics. > > Alas, availability of ITX boards with an ATOM onboard is poor. > > You have a better chance of getting ATOM on a plethora of proprietary > > or industrial x86 motherboard / SBC formats - from the likes of > > Advantech, Kontron, Nexcom, Aplex, ...there are many of them. > > > > Note that DOS (esp. FreeDOS) can boot on a large share of relatively > > recent embedded PC motherboards with x86 processors from Intel or > > AMD. The only condition is: the BIOS/UEFI must contain legacy BIOS > > interfaces and boot capability. In modern UEFI firmware families, the > > keyword to look for in the SETUP menu is the "CSM". > > If the CSM config menu is absent, typically you're out of luck with > > DOS on bare metal. Of course you can still turn to virtualization. > > If you're open-source minded, QEMU/KVM in Linux is amazing. > > But even DOSbox in Windows can work wonders. > > > > With some pieces of really old software, especially in DOS, you may > > run into problems if your CPU is *too fast*. And, not all of those > > are based on the Borland Pascal CRT library bug (which can be solved > > by a patch). My answer is: Vortex86DX. You can underclock the CPU > > core right there in the BIOS SETUP. > > Or a HV/emulator that allows you to throttle the clock of the > > emulated CPU. > > Or, you can try tweaking the P-state and T-state of even a relatively > > modern CPU, to make it run as slow as a 486 :-) while the CPU IPC > > dosage in time is still pretty smooth (the T-state PWM frame is 8 or > > 16 ticks of the CPU core clock). > > > > I'm getting off topic... apologies. > > > > To return to your question: > > If you're asking for a mass-produced hobbyist PC, ICOP is as > > mass-produced and as hobbyist as it gets in the PC business. > > Look at the feature set of their motherboards if that fits your idea > > of "hobbyist support". > > No modern Intel-based motherboard has that set of GPIO and old > > combatible peripheral interfaces. > > If you're after Arduino / RPi style interfaces, take a look at the > > 86duino (which is also Vortex-based). > > > > Good luck with your project, whatever it is :-) > > > > Frank > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Freedos-user mailing list > > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > > _______________________________________________ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user _______________________________________________ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
