On Wed, 2014-02-26 at 15:04 +0100, Jan Cholasta wrote:
> On 25.2.2014 20:22, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > On Tue, 2014-02-25 at 13:22 -0500, Rob Crittenden wrote:
> >> Jan Cholasta wrote:
> >>> On 25.2.2014 17:36, Ludwig Krispenz wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 02/25/2014 05:12 PM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 2014-02-25 at 16:18 +0100, Jan Cholasta wrote:
> >>>>>> On 25.2.2014 16:11, Simo Sorce wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 2014-02-25 at 15:59 +0100, Petr Spacek wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 25.2.2014 15:11, Simo Sorce wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 2014-02-25 at 14:54 +0100, Ludwig Krispenz wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Any reason why we should follow in detail what softshm does ?
> >>>>>>>>>> because I did't know what is really needed. If you want to have a
> >>>>>>>>>> pkcs11
> >>>>>>>>>> module, which stores data in ldap, I though it should have all the
> >>>>>>>>>> attributes potentially needed.
> >>>>>>>>>> Jan said taht OpenDNSSEC uses CKA_VERIFY, CKA_ENCRYPT, CKA_WRAP,
> >>>>>>>>>> CKA_SIGN, CKA_DECRYPT, CKA_UNWRAP, CKA_SENSITIVE, CKA_PRIVATE,
> >>>>>>>>>> CKA_EXTRACTABLE,
> >>>>>>>>>> so there is at least one requirement for fine grained attributes.
> >>>>>>>>> Does OpenDNSSEC store them as separate entities and need access
> >>>>>>>>> to them
> >>>>>>>>> independently ?
> >>>>>>>> AFAIK OpenDNSSEC uses purely PKCS#11 for key manipulation so LDAP
> >>>>>>>> schema
> >>>>>>>> doesn't matter as long as our PKCS#11 module can derive all values
> >>>>>>>> defined by
> >>>>>>>> standard.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Honza, you did investigate OpenDNSSEC integration, please add some
> >>>>>>>> details if
> >>>>>>>> you can.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Or is this internal use that can be satisfied by unpacking a blob in
> >>>>>>>>> OpenDNSSEC ?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What does bind9 uses ? Petr, can you provide example key files ?
> >>>>>>>> Private+public keys stored in files:
> >>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/freeipa-devel/2014-February/msg00463.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Private keys stored in HSM and public keys in files:
> >>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/archives/freeipa-devel/2014-February/msg00333.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> (I.e. some values in .private file are replaced by PKCS#11 label.)
> >>>>>>> Ok it seem clear to me we do not need to spell out a lot of values
> >>>>>>> when
> >>>>>>> using pkcs#11 as bind doesn't need them in the key files. So I
> >>>>>>> assume it
> >>>>>>> can query the pkcs#11 module to find what it needs.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would use these key files as a sort of guide to understand what we
> >>>>>>> need in LDAP. I would try to put in a single blob as much as we can
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>> we do not explicitly need by a client querying LDAP directly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think in order to nail down exactly what we need, at this point, we
> >>>>>>> require some example use cases and queries the various clients would
> >>>>>>> perform with spelled out what they are looking for to identify or
> >>>>>>> manipulate keys.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Simo.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> See "How applications interact with PKCS#11" at
> >>>>>> <http://www.freeipa.org/page/V3/PKCS11_in_LDAP>. Tl;dr: applications
> >>>>>> don't search for keys by key data, but by metadata, so like I said in
> >>>>>> the other thread, key data can be in a single blob, but metadata should
> >>>>>> be in separate attributes.
> >>>>> Ah sorry, I hadn't looked at that one yet.
> >>>>> It helps quite a bit.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So are the class, key_type, id, label, token, 'sign' the only values we
> >>>>> should really care to split off ?
> >>>
> >>> They are all metadata related to PKCS#11 operation. I don't think you
> >>> can easily encode them in PKCS#8 or certificate blob, so they actually
> >>> need to be split off. You can find the full list of them in the PKCS#11
> >>> spec (link below).
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can you describe what are these values ?
> >>>>> What is class ? Why is it important, and how does it differ from
> >>>>> key_type ?
> >>>>> What is the token ? What is 'sign' ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Feel free to give references to specific documents to read up about
> >>>>> these attributes.
> >>>> I'm a newcomer to this area and am orienting myself at this doc:
> >>>> ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/pkcs/pkcs-11/v2-30/pkcs-11v2-30b-d6.pdf
> >>>> and looking into opendnssec andsofthsm code.
> >>>
> >>> I use mainly
> >>> <ftp://ftp.rsasecurity.com/pub/pkcs/pkcs-11/v2-20/pkcs-11v2-20.pdf>, as
> >>> 2.30 is a draft ATM.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It explains CKA_SIGN as:
> >>>> "TheCKA_SIGN attribute of the signature key, whic h indicates whether
> >>>> the key supports signatures with appendix, must be CK_TRUE."
> >>>> I cannot tell if this will be needed, just can make up an attribute and
> >>>> allow it in an objectclass :-)
> >>>
> >>> OpenDNSSEC puts it in public key objects it generates, so it's needed at
> >>> least for the sake of it.
> >>>
> >>> Actually, I think we should support all of the metadata attributes, so
> >>> that our PKCS#11 module is reasonably generic and not tailored to needs
> >>> of a specific consumer.
> >>
> >> We could hardcode some of these values but it will very likely cause
> >> problems later. It seems simple enough to just define schema for all of
> >> them and store them, except perhaps in the cases where they are easily
> >> derived. If we, for example, store the prime numbers and exponents, they
> >> need to be protected as carefully as the private key.
> >
> > This is something I meant to discuss too, how do we protect them ?
> > Clearly we have ACIs but I am wondering if we want to encrypt them with
> > keys not immediately or easily available via LDAP ?
> >
> > It's kind of catastrofic if they get inadvertently exposed like if
> > someone does a ldapsearch as "Directory Manager", which is one of the
> > reasons why we encrypt kerberos key material before storing it into the
> > db.
> 
> PKCS#8 allows encryption, I guess we can use that. There needs to be 
> some metadata on how to decrypt the blob though, so that the PKCS#11 
> module can actually decrypt it when necessary.

Yep, and we also need to decide what master key is used and where it is
placed, and who access it, and how :-)

Simo.

-- 
Simo Sorce * Red Hat, Inc * New York

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