Kuhn's book (all of it) has had a substantive impact on my overall 
intellectual and analytical development (and I'm neither a scientist nor a 
philosopher).  I consider it a truly seminal work, and imho well worth any 
thinking person's time.

And, you get to feel cool because you know where "paradigm shift" came from 
;-)

David

dba | David Breecker Associates, Inc.
www.BreeckerAssociates.com
Abiquiu:     505-685-4891
Santa Fe:    505-690-2335


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] kuhn


> All -- Everybody should "read" The Structure of Scientific Revolutions,
> which is to say, start it and see how far you get before you are totally
> bogged down.  But, my philosopher friends warn me, that book does not
> contain Kuhn's mature opinion.  I am afraid I have never gotten beyond his
> immature ones.
>
> "My philosopher friends" also tell me that the two volume Encyclopedia of
> Philosophy is the best philosophy crib notes ever, respectable for
> citation, even.
>
> Nick
> Nicholas Thompson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Date: 7/25/2006 10:31:21 PM
>> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 46
>>
>> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
>>       (Carlos Gershenson)
>>    2. Re: What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
>>       (Robert Holmes)
>>    3. Is it economics or biology (Tom Johnson)
>>    4. Re: Definition of Complexity (Robert Holmes)
>>    5. Re: What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
>>       (Phil Henshaw)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:56:19 +0200
>> From: Carlos Gershenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done
>> for us?
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> I think this discussion is productive, because it seems it is
>> bringing some light and agreement on "what is complexity and what it
>> is not"...
>>
>> > I didn't form the question well - what I meant was: what can we do
>> > now that we couldn't do 15 years before as a direct consequence of
>> > advances in complexity science?
>>
>> In line with what other people have said, complexity has been
>> invading all sciences. e.g. you cannot do systems biology without
>> taking a complexity stance, but all these advances will be seen as
>> biology or medicine...
>> Same for other disciplines... so maybe the question could be
>>
>> what can we do now that we couldn't do 15 years ago as a consequence
>> of complexity thinking?
>>
>> Then the list I gave earlier would be a valid answer... even if the
>> advances come from physics, biology, engineering, they required ideas
>> from complex systems...
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>      Carlos Gershenson...
>>      Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel
>>      Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium
>>      http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/
>>
>>    ?Tendencies tend to change...?
>>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:26:53 -0600
>> From: "Robert Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done
>> for us?
>> To: FRIAM <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I'll be honest, I cheated. I could have gone to the source and read the
>> man's own words, but sometimes it's just easier to read the Cliff notes
> (or
>> equivalent). In this case:
>>
>> http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/kuhnsyn.html
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On 7/25/06, Owen Densmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Which if Kuhn's books would be good to read?  There are apparently
>> > several!
>> >
>> >      -- Owen
>> >
>> > Owen Densmore
>> > http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jul 24, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:
>> >
>> > > You beat me to it Mike. I was re-reading Kuhn this morning because 
>> > > I'm
>> > > pretty darn sure that complexity science is failing to establish
>> > > itself as a
>> > > paradigm, and I wanted support for this contention from someone a
>> > > whole load
>> > > cleverer than me. I'll report back on my readings...
>> > >
>> > > Just as a starter, Kuhn suggests that a field's history is largely
>> > > represented in the new textbooks that accompany the paradigm shift.
>> > > I'm
>> > > thinking that if we don't have the textbooks (see Owen's thread),
>> > > it's hard
>> > > for us to even claim that a new paradigm exists ("there's no there
>> > > there").
>> > >
>> > > Robert
>> > >
>> > > On 7/24/06, Michael Agar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Well, there's the roads, yeah, and then there's the...
>> > >>
>> > >> Romans are the right metaphor, since much of what's happened in the
>> > >> last X years has been diffusion of ideas--ideas, not measures--into
>> > >> numerous different domains. Like Kuhn said...
>> > >>
>> > >> Mike
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Jul 24, 2006, at 7:21 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi all,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I really enjoyed Joe's post and it set me thinking - exactly what
>> > >> > has complexity science achieved? IMHO, one measure of a field's
>> > >> > health is that the field moves forward (radical, huh?). If I look
>> > >> > at particle physics, they now know stuff that they didn't 15 years
>> > >> > ago (neutrino mass for example); if I look at high-temperature
>> > >> > superconductivity, Tc moves ever upwards. If I look at string
>> > >> > theory they ask (and occassionally answer) ever more abstruse and
>> > >> > unlikely questions that might not bear any relation to the real
>> > >> > world but are at least based on what was asked before.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > So here's the question: in the field of complexity science, 
>> > >> > exactly
>> > >> > what can we do now that we could not do 15 years ago?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Robert
>> > >> > ============================================================
>> > >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > >> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> > >> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ============================================================
>> > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>> > >>
>> > > ============================================================
>> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>> >
>> >
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:40:29 -0600
>> From: "Tom Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: [FRIAM] Is it economics or biology
>> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED] com" <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Of interest to the list, I hope.
>> >From the current issue of The Economist:
>> The Cambrian age of
>>
> economics<http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
>>
>>  Evolutionary economics is surviving, but not thriving
>>
>> http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
>>
>> -- tj
>>
>> ==========================================
>> J. T. Johnson
>> Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
>> www.analyticjournalism.com
>> 505.577.6482(c)                                 505.473.9646(h)
>> http://www.jtjohnson.com               [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
>> To change something, build a new model that makes the
>> existing model obsolete."
>>                                                    -- Buckminster Fuller
>> ==========================================
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:46:12 -0600
>> From: "Robert Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Definition of Complexity
>> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > One can certainly start from the partition function. But the partition
>> > function is something that is additional to the microscopic
>> > description, hence emergent. Indeed, the partition function is
>> > different depending on whether you are using microcanonical, canonical
>> > or grand canonical ensembles, each of which is a thermodynamic, not
>> > microscopic concept.
>>
>>
>> I'm surprised that you consider the partition function as being "in
>> addition" to the microscopic description. Is this the common view in
>> statistical mechanics? Just to be specific, if I've got a system of
>> distinguishable particles and the energy levels aren't degenerate, the
>> single particle partition function Zsp is given by:
>>
>> Zsp = sum( exp( -ei/k.T ) )
>> where ei is the energy of the energy level i, the sum is over all i (i.e.
>> over all energy levels), k is the Boltzmann constant and T is the
>> temperature.
>>
>> Now that seems about as microscopic description of a system as you can
> get.
>> Could you explain why it's not please?
>>
>> Thanks for your patience!
>>
>> Robert
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:30:59 -0400
>> From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done
>> for us?
>> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> If you actually wanted an opening to complexity theory that would 
>> actually
>> assist government decision making, you'd learn to train computers how to
>> recognize the mathematical difference between homeostatic fluctuation and
>> structural divergence.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
>> NY NY 10040
>> tel: 212-795-4844
>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: McNamara, Laura A [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> McNamara, Laura A
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 9:15 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for
> us?
>>
>>
>> To follow on Mike's comments: what SFI, NECSI, UCLA, and other hotbeds of
>> complex thinking have in common is some luxury to consider complexity,
>> modeling, and social evolution, to creatively push the application of
>> complex systems studies to culture and society.
>>
>> And here I go on my soapbox (with apologies to those of you who've heard
> me
>> rant about this before): what's disturbing is the number of people in
>> government (go figure) who are touting agent based models and complexity
> as
>> predictive tool and theory, respectively, for making decisions about
>> wickedly complex quagmires in places like... oh, maybe Iraq...?  I'm
>> spending the summer studying computational modeling and simulation
>> technologies in the DoD and the level of interest in complexity theory as
>> the holy grail of social theory is both remarkable and worrisome.  This
>> being Washington, I've seen more than a few contractors grabbing at DoD
>> money to get that grail up and running, without considering the manifold
>> issues involved. My Sandia colleague, Tim Trucano, and I are gearing up 
>> to
>> write about this issue and will likely be at FRIAM quite a bit to toss
> ideas
>> around with y'all.
>>
>> Lurking in the discourse about complexity, computational modeling, and
>> society is epistemological question, I think, that requires us to 
>> consider
>> how we use modeling and simulation tools to produce knowledge about the
>> world we live in.   In academia, we have a great deal of latitude in the
>> purpose of knowledge-making activities; we're engaged in discovery over
> the
>> long run. Inside the Beltway, it's a different story entirely: they want
>> decision tools, and they want them yesterday.
>>
>> Of course, this begs the question of why common sense is so utterly 
>> absent
>> in our nation's fine capitol...
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>>   _____
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Michael Agar
>> Sent: Tue 7/25/2006 6:49 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for
> us?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2006, at 6:51 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > But more seriously, which university has a department of complex
>> > systems? Theres the Santa Fe Institute, and possibly NECSI, but where
>> > else?
>> >
>>
>> SFI and NECSI make room for visiting students at different levels,
>> but neither are degree-granting. In the social realm,
>> UCLA has a new Human Complex Systems institute that is going
>> gangbusters in its first year, but it is undergrad only right now,
>> though the interest there hints that the younger generation is into
>> it already. At NECSI the Portland State University computer science
>> program drew some student attention, since they can cobble together
>> complexity like courses of study. Couple of student emails on the
>> NECSI list pointed to other possibillities, like George Mason
>> University's Center for Social Complexity. Otherwise it seems like
>> academic pockets in various domains. For instance, at NECSI I met a
>> student who works with Reuben McDaniels, prof at the University of
>> Texas biz school, known on the Plexus list for his work applying
>> complexity org development to health care. He works with their
>> Prigogine Center, though I'm not sure what they do. I'm sure there
>> are many other centers and institutes and academic pockets that folks
>> on the list know of as well, and many others in other countries.
>> David Lane's group at Reggio-Modena comes to mind. It's an
>> interesting "shreds and patches" kind of situation that probably
>> reflects the scattered and multi-perspectival nature of the field at
>> the moment that motivated Owen's original email.
>>
>> I've been disappointed that anthro hasn't been more active, though
>> there are some good SFI external faculty examples like Steve Lansing
>> in ecology and Doug White in networks and George Gummerman and Tim
>> Kohler on the ancient Anasazi (a questionable label now, since it is
>> a Navajo term and some Pueblo people object). Shortly before
>> electricity was invented, when I was in grad school, we learned about
>> our "holistic" perspective and the "emergent" nature of our work and
>> how our goal was to learn a new perspective "bottom-up," though that
>> term we didn't use. Sander van der Leeuw, former SFI faculty, took
>> over the department at Arizona State and looks like he's changing
>> things in a complex direction, so maybe it's starting to happen. We
>> never did anything rigorous and general with the concepts in the old
>> days, instead learned them by reading ethnographic case after
>> ethnographic case, like lawyers learn legal reasoning. You'd think
>> the field would notice the parallels. If anyone's interested, Lansing
>> did an overview of complexity for the Annual Review of Anthropology a
>> few years back, and I did a piece in Complexity that complexifies
>> some ethnographic issues (We Have Met the Other and We're All
>> Nonlinear) that's on my web page.
>>
>> And now, for something completely different, this week's Economist
>> has a feature on evolutionary economics:
>> http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>> <http://www.friam.org/>
>>
>>
>>
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>> End of Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 46
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>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> 



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