-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 3:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [SPAM] - Re: [FRIAM] Friam Book - Found word(s) remove list in the Text body
TWIMC, I am an editor. Nick > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Date: 1/14/2007 5:52:32 PM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 25 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24 (Nicholas Thompson) > 2. The FRIAM (Marko A. Rodriguez) > 3. Re: 1. fun and sandpiles (Phil Henshaw) > 4. Re: The FRIAM (Phil Henshaw) > 5. Re: The FRIAM (J T Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:20:32 -0500 > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24 > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Phil, > > I have kept out of the most recent War of the PolyMaths because i just > don't have the firepower these days to keep up. > > But your last communication poked my fire a bit. > > Have you seen either THE PLAUSIBILITY OF LIFE or CATCHING OURSELVES IN THE > ACT. > > The f irst is a must read, because the gain/pain ratio is so high. As for > the second, the pain is pretty high, so I have been unable as yet whether > the gain is worth it, but I am pretty sure. > > Nick > > > > [Original Message] > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Date: 1/13/2007 12:00:41 PM > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24 > > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: fun and sandpiles (Phil Henshaw) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 08:29:14 -0500 > > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] fun and sandpiles > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee > > Group'" <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > > On thing worth mentioning is the reason it's useful to consider the maze > > of instrumental behaviors that constitute systems in the context of the > > whole envelope of their developments (??.?? ? `?.??) from beginning to > > end. It turns the mystery of complex developmental systems into the > > puzzle of when and how they'll go through the classic switches and > > display the key landmarks of doing so. > > > > The growth to climax switch is one of the most interesting of them, and > > of particular concern to systems designed not to allow it, for example. > > Of course, a major preliminary question once the model is understood, is > > whether the switches that completely reorient the developmental > > processes originate from inside or out. > > > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > Sure, there's definitely a point to make that the inactive > > > presence of potential least energy patterns is frequently > > > 'the reason' that patterns > > > form. That might make it seem that offering 'fun' as an alternative > > > (for the system exploring the options), is well, like it was said for > > > fun... I also see a much more difficult issue involved. > > > > > > There's the significant question to raise about the > > > difference between abstract causation (which has the end > > > effect as the cause) and instrumental causation (which has > > > the process leading there as the cause). The former is a lot > > > easier, and arguably much more useful since it lets you give > > > a causal value to abstractions like statistics for > > > other situations than the one you're actually considering. > > > The latter > > > is a horrible nuisance by comparison, because it requires > > > extensive particular understanding of situations that will > > > occur only once. Because it's how nature does it, however > > > (you can watch and see), the latter still seems interesting. > > > > > > In tracing instrumental causation there certainly are some > > > common mistakes to be made, and there's not much of a > > > developed tradition for guidance, either. What seems the > > > worst of it is that trying to read instrumental causes > > > sometimes seems to largely lead modern minds to conspiracy > > > theory and magical thinking. Still, it gives one to wonder > > > why people are so very bad at it, and about the examples of > > > natural system steering where it's navigating the > > > instrumental causes that clearly seems to be the center of the fun. > > > > > > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > > > NY NY 10040 > > > tel: 212-795-4844 > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard > > > > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:55 AM > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] fun and sandpiles > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Phil, and I definitely agree that sandpile > > > phenomena and play > > > > phenomena are not mutually exclusive in the domain of complexity. > > > > > > > > I think I was only trying to emphasize the point that I > > > > started my thread > > > > with a view to specific pattern formations of frigatebirds > > > > which result from > > > > some specific rules of interaction. At the risk of > > > > misinterpretation here > > > > (and no disrespect intended, if I am misinterpreting), an > > > > argument was > > > > presented, it seemed, that there are no reasons for certain > > > > behaviours other > > > > than that they are the result of having fun, but the argument > > > > was made in > > > > the context of animals that were not necessarily in the > > > > pattern formations I > > > > was looking at. > > > > > > > > It may very well be that it is fun for frigatebirds to be in these > > > > formations, but there are, I think, still physical reasons > > > > why they choose > > > > those formations - and not other ones - related to the way in > > > > which they > > > > couple due to the energy savings that certain formations allow (I > > > > hypothesize). > > > > > > > > Coming back to cyclists who interact, it is certainly > > > > satisfying when a > > > > drafting cyclist finds the "sweetspot" in the draft zone, > > > > where maximal > > > > drafting benefit is experienced. It also fun and satisfying > > > > to be part of > > > > the peloton experience, to have engaged in a series of > > > > interactions with > > > > other cyclists that result in emergent pattern formation. > > > > Even so, the > > > > pattern formations can be traced primarily to physical > > > > coupling between > > > > cyclists, namely the drafting benefit, collision avoidance > > > > and forward > > > > motion. > > > > > > > > Bicycle racing, is of course, a sport, so it also involves > > > > strategies and > > > > directives from leaders, but you can remove those and there > > > > will still be > > > > certain types of patterns which will arise by the basic rules > > > > I've noted > > > > (I've simulated some by computer, although the results are > > > > still a bit > > > > controversial). > > > > > > > > In any event, I certainly agree that there is a broad scale > > > > of complexity, > > > > since most types of interactions result in some sort of > > > > emergent phenomena. > > > > I think, though, that it becomes increasingly difficult to > > > > identify even > > > > what the emergent phenomena are when looking at complex > > > > interactions that > > > > involve a multitude of factors and rules of interaction, let > > > > alone isolate > > > > what the principles of interaction are that lead to the > > > > emergent phenomena. > > > > What is the emergent phenomena of birds that are playing, in > > > > apparently > > > > random configurations? I'm not suggesting there are any, > > > they're just > > > > difficult to see, that's all. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:34 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > > > > > > > > > > > I for one don't think emergent systems study requires > > > choosing between > > > > 'sand piles' and animals having 'fun'. Playful > > > > experimentation is one > > > > of the all time best natural systems for discovering natural > > > > structures it seems to me, just a higher level version of > > > > jumping potential wells like some grain of sand seems bound > > > > to have done at a critical point to > > > > get a slide going. The range of complex system phenomena is > > > > tremendous. > > > > > > > > One thing that helps me is that there seem to be various > > > > scales you can arrange the entire spectrum on, complexity of > > > > self-regulation for > > > > example. Thermostats and sand piles are on the simple side > > > > and animal > > > > acrobatics on the high side. You don't necessarily have to > > > > assign a number to things to have a useful scale, of course, > > > > just have a way to order things and make note of > > > > uncertainties. That's what the paleontologists do with all > > > > their species branching diagrams (clad notation). For those > > > > who like numbers, though, there's the rudimentary numerical > > > > development scale, the number of doublings a system performs > > > > in its development. Humans and the world economy thus far > > > > are about 30 > > > > doublings, for example. Yep, kind of an interestingly compressed > > > > scale! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave > > > > NY NY 10040 > > > > tel: 212-795-4844 > > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > > > Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:05 PM > > > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I for one am rarely afraid to ask questions, stupid or > > > > otherwise, when > > > > > my curiosity is piqued. > > > > > > > > > > Do the ravens in Sante Fe align in vee formations when they > > > > roll off > > > > > chandelles? If they do, then regardless of whether they > > > are having > > > > > fun, it is an interesting pattern formation which causes > > > one to ask > > > > > reasonably why > > > > > they choose such a formation. Do they do it for the sheer > > > > > pleasure of the > > > > > esthetics of the vee formation? This would, it seems, entail > > > > > some "fun" of > > > > > the formation, although I doubt I would find many people who > > > > > would argue > > > > > that is the fun they derive. So then why is it fun that they > > > > > should align in > > > > > those formations? > > > > > > > > > > I myself wouldn't claim to subscribe to a behaviourist > > > > school, unless > > > > > you can generalize the term to include analysis of the > > > emergence of > > > > > physical patterns among collectives. Pattern formation within > > > > > sandpiles is more akin > > > > > to my specific interests than the behaviour of individual > > > > > animals. That is > > > > > always interesting too, but it isn't the focus of my inquiry here. > > > > > > > > > > Hugh Trenchard > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Peter Lissaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:05 PM > > > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When he was given a brief description of the learned > > > > theories of Dr. > > > > > > Freud, and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will > > > > > Rogers stated > > > > > > that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in > > > > > Oklahoma, folks > > > > > > mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it". I gave a > > > > > paper at AIAA > > > > > > annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds > > > > > extracting energy from > > > > > > turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their > > > > > low flight > > > > > > speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in > > > Santa Fe are > > > > > > marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the > > > > > Sangres. But why? > > > > > > When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with > > > > > dolphins surfing > > > > > > and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that > > > > > they're "jes' havin' > > > > > > fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who > > > > > claim animals do > > > > > > everything for a reason. > > > > > > > > > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > > > > > > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what > > > to look for. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > > > > > TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Friam mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24 > > ************************************* > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 11:42:54 -0700 > From: "Marko A. Rodriguez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FRIAM] The FRIAM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi all, > > FRIAM should publish a book that contains chapters written by the > most prolific of the FRIAM emailsters. I could envision an odd mix of > science, science-fiction, and unadulterated speculation... > > The book could then be published through: > > http://www.lulu.com/ > > In which printing is driven by consumption. Furthermore, lulu.com > automatically places the publication on Amazon.com. > > I'd buy it, > > Marko A. Rodriguez > Los Alamos National Laboratory (P362-proto) > Los Alamos, NM 87545 > Phone +1 505 606 1691 > http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~okram > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070114/9b077890 /attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:23:56 -0500 > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 1. fun and sandpiles > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Nick, > Hi. Yea, thinking about the difference between instrumental > (physical) and abstract (theoretical) causes of even perfectly well > behaved things is a tough climb. I'm glad if anyone is willing to > put the two on the table at the same time at all. > > No I haven't read those, but I'm always interested in the new angles > people try. The usual place I find the Darwinian models to break > down is in assuming the environment somehow has the future shapes of > things built in and a mold pressing process of random variation and > atrition is how those shapes are transfered to organisms. To me that > leaves the question as to where the shapes come from unanswered. I > also haven't found anyone who has connected the fact that evolution is > a sequential extension of a growth process, with any particular > mechanism of growth. > > Can you give me a snapshot of what you found satisfying in either one > of them? > > What's different with my approach is that the main players in the game > are the evolving internal loops of the growth systems, the organisms > themselves, animated by the feedbacks they 'discover'. Using the > interface between a loop network's 'inside and outside' as a boundary > between internal and external forces opens a whole lot of interesting > new questions. The rudimentary question is, since loop systems > exist, what do they add? They do appear to adapt and invent, by many > mechanisms, and I think the key to exploring how is thinking about how > the 'fringe' of their structures could vary independent of > their 'core', so as to set up a kind of phase space exploring machine > that is animated by feedbacks it finds. > > Phil > > > Phil, > > > > I have kept out of the most recent War of the PolyMaths because i > just > > don't have the firepower these days to keep up. > > > > But your last communication poked my fire a bit. > > > > Have you seen either THE PLAUSIBILITY OF LIFE or CATCHING OURSELVES > IN THE > > ACT. > > > > The f irst is a must read, because the gain/pain ratio is so high. > As for > > the second, the pain is pretty high, so I have been unable as yet > whether > > the gain is worth it, but I am pretty sure. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > [Original Message] > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Date: 1/13/2007 12:00:41 PM > > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24 > > > > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > > > [email protected] > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: fun and sandpiles (Phil Henshaw) > > > > ......... > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:44:36 -0500 > From: "Phil Henshaw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The FRIAM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > What I think would be nice for 'mining' forums like this would be for > a publisher trying to stay on the edge have an editor pick out a few > threads, from different forums perhaps, that appear to be testing new > waters and invite critque and response. > > That would somewhat correct the problem I see with the linear thread > structure of these open forum discussions at least. Mostly things > don't get integrated and discussed here because every reply tends to > change the subject. You get a random walk of thinking rather than > neigborhoods well explored. > > phil > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > FRIAM should publish a book that contains chapters written by the > > most prolific of the FRIAM emailsters. I could envision an odd mix > of > > science, science-fiction, and unadulterated speculation... > > > > The book could then be published through: > > > > http://www.lulu.com/ > > > > In which printing is driven by consumption. Furthermore, lulu.com > > automatically places the publication on Amazon.com. > > > > I'd buy it, > > > > Marko A. Rodriguez > > Los Alamos National Laboratory (P362-proto) > > Los Alamos, NM 87545 > > Phone +1 505 606 1691 > > http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~okram > > > > > > > > > > -- > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > tel: 212-795-4844 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > explorations: www.synapse9.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:46:18 -0700 > From: "J T Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The FRIAM > To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > If someone will do the work of selecting and editing the content, the IAJ > Press will handle the pre-press work and publish such a volume via > Lulu.comjust as we did with the Ver > 1.0 Proceedings. (See http://www.lulu.com/tom117) > -tj > > On 1/14/07, Marko A. Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > FRIAM should publish a book that contains chapters written by the most > > prolific of the FRIAM emailsters. I could envision an odd mix of science, > > science-fiction, and unadulterated speculation... > > The book could then be published through: > > http://www.lulu.com/ > > > > In which printing is driven by consumption. Furthermore, lulu.comautomatically places the publication on > > Amazon.com. > > > > I'd buy it, > > Marko A. Rodriguez > > Los Alamos National Laboratory (P362-proto) > > Los Alamos, NM 87545 > > Phone +1 505 606 1691 > > http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~okram <http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/%7Eokram> > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > -- > ========================================== > J. T. Johnson > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > www.analyticjournalism.com > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) > http://www.jtjohnson.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > To change something, build a new model that makes the > existing model obsolete." > -- Buckminster Fuller > ========================================== > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070114/d45e6518 /attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > [email protected] > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 25 > ************************************* ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
