Yah, Latane and Darley is/are the main reference for the Bobbit chapter....
C. Nicholas Thompson wrote: > here is the straight poop from my colleague Jim Laird. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Research Associate, Redfish Group, Santa Fe, NM ([EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) > Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University > ([EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Jim Laird <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *Sent:* 5/25/2007 4:02:13 PM > *Subject:* RE: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to > avoid offendingMuslims|theDaily Mail > > Sure, by all means. (You always did know how to influence me.) > > > > James D. Laird > > Professor of Psychology > > Clark University > > Worcester , MA 01610 > > Tel: 508-793-7272 > > FAX: 508-793-7265 > > * From: * Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *Sent:* Friday, May 25, 2007 5:27 PM > *To:* Jim Laird > *Subject:* RE: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust to > avoid offendingMuslims|theDaily Mail > > > > May I have your permission to forward this to the list? Exactly > what I was hoping for. > > > > Nick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > * From: * Jim Laird <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * To: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * Sent: * 5/25/2007 3:17:27 PM > > * Subject: * RE: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust > to avoid offendingMuslims|theDaily Mail > > > > Nick, > > There is a great book on this phenomenon, called I > think The unresponsive bystander. By Bib Latane and John > Darley. From the 70s I would guess. Of course, an actual, > real life emergency is likely to be multiply determined and > complex. But L & Ds pitch was that there were at least two > factors at work in the Kitty Genovese case. One was that many > of the bystanders were aware that other people had also seen > the event, and so assumed that others would have called 911 > already. To test this possibility, in a variety of > situations, they led people to believe that someone was hurt, > or having a seizure, or otherwise in trouble, and that there > were either no other potential helpers, 1 other, or 4 or 5 > others. (Of course, the potential helpers were confederates, > or sometimes nothing more than a tape recorder, but the real > participants didnt know that.) When the real participant was > the only potential helper, 100% helped. When there was 1 > other, most but not all people helped, and when there were 4 > or 5 others, even fewer of the real participants helped. L & > D had lots of observations to support the view that the > nonhelpers believed the emergency was real, and were > concerned. They just didnt help. L & D called it diffusion of > responsibility, I think. > > They also observed that emergencies are by their > nature often ambiguous, so that people may relay on others to > decide if there is a problem. One of their very cute studies > of this aspect involved sitting real participants down with a > bunch of questionnaires, on a high floor in a Manhattan > building. While they worked on the questionnaires, smoke > began to billow from the ventilation ducts. They observed > that when people were alone, they noticed the smoke quickly, > and immediately went to tell someone about it. When in > groups, of either confederates or other real participants, > they were slower to notice the smoke, and when they did, > appeared to check their neighbors, who were industriously > working on the questionnaires , so they in effect shrugged and > went back to their own questionnaires. The mere presence of > others dramatically reduced noticing an emergency, and dealing > with it. > > In the Milgram studies, the participants did not > just assume a Yale professor wouldnt really hurt someone. To > test this, Milgrim ran one study in a sleazy motel in > Bridgeport . Obedience dropper from 65% to something like > 40%, but that is still pretty appalling. In other variations, > participants were required to give electric shocks to a cute > puppywho yelped and leaped when they did so, but they did it. > In others, they hurt themselves, by for instance giving > themselves blasts of white noise which was actually harmless, > but which they were told would damage their hearing. Or eat > disgustingly bitter quinine soaked crackers. > > Hope this is helpful. I couldnt gather what the > discussion was about. > > And I certainly hope we are still colleagues. You > just live farther away. > > Jim > > > > > > > > James D. Laird > > Professor of Psychology > > Clark University > > Worcester , MA 01610 > > Tel: 508-793-7272 > > FAX: 508-793-7265 > > * From: * Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *Sent:* Friday, May 25, 2007 2:44 AM > *To:* Bill Eldridge; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group > *Cc:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the Holocaust > to avoid offendingMuslims|theDaily Mail > > > > Bill, thanks for your many clarifications. > > > > I apologize for my crappy memory. > > > > Two weeks ago, we were sitting around a family party chatting > and watching two little kids roughhousing. They were behaving > just on the edge of dangerous, and any one of the adults in > the room would have been seen as authorized by the others to > rein them in, including two parents, two grandparents of the > younger child, one parent and various aunts and uncles of the > older child. In a millisecond, the older child was down with > a badly broken upper arm. Required pins, surgery, the whole > nine yards. > > > > There was not an adult in that room who did not report that > she or he would have stopped the kids long before if other > adults had not been there. This was not said in an > exculpatory way by anybody. Nobody took blame in this case as > a zero sum game. We we did seem to feel, rightly or wrongly, > that social groups have a certain viscosity that we felt > restrained within a membrane of group inaction. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > * From: * Bill Eldridge <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * To: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;The Friday Morning > Applied Complexity Coffee Group <mailto:[email protected]> > > * Cc: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * Sent: * 5/25/2007 4:15:32 AM > > * Subject: * Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the > Holocaust to avoid offendingMuslims|theDaily Mail > > > > > The link I sent with this notes that of the 38 people who > saw Kitty "get clobbered" > only a couple would have seen an actual knife or had an > idea that she was in real danger > or seen anything (and many of the tenants were old and > would have had a tough time > figuring out what was happening when they'd just been > waken at 3am, the streetlight > was dim, etc.) > > Most just heard a noise in front of a usually noisy bar > (this night it closed early after a fight), > some saw a woman get up off the ground and walk away (if > slowly), perhaps a few > actually saw the man by her before he ran away and she got > up and walked away. > She apparently yelled something one time, didn't keep > screaming. (Of course if she > was in bad shape she quite likely couldn't have kept > screaming but she did walk away). > One who realized she was in danger said she called the > police, but in those pre-911 > days lots of calls were lost and callers were regular ly > abused for annoying the police > with non-serious matters (you had to identify yourself to > report a crime back then). > One observer called the police but got scared to speak and > hung up. Another was > very very drunk and didn't want to deal with the police. > For those that didn't realize > it was a knife stabbing, they would have reported an > assault, which would have brought > out the police in about an hour, too late to help Kitty. > > When the murderer did come back and find Kitty, it was > behind the building next door, > not the same apartment building. The link also notes that > a lot of the "witnesses" were old > people who wouldn't have seen or heard well, and would > have been in no position for > heroics, only to call the police. But for most, the > incident ended when they were woken > up by a yell, they looked to the window, they saw a woman > get up and walk away. > In short, a ty pical non-event in noisy tumultous New York . > > Of course the NY Times pre sented this very differently, > and thus the hyper-example > of citizen apathy. But I also think of cases like these in > the middle of civilization and > heavy news coverage, and can only imagine how distorted > our reporting of events > in the Middle East, Asia or Africa is. > > [Not long ago I read someone's evaluation of the Third > Wave anecdote from the > Whole Earth Catalog. In this case it turns out that it > wasn't nearly the big to-do > that the teacher made it out to be, but the teacher > basically made a career out of > repeating this "informative lesson" of how Nazism could > have started, even sucking > in Stewart Brand. The more important lesson there being, > "How could this bogus version > of events stick around for so long without anyone > questioning it as obvious bullshit?" > Which poss ibly relates back to the original thread - in > my school we didn't study the > holocaust even though I read "Rise & Fall..." for summer > reading - perhaps the > schools actua lly thought there were lots of other topics > they could teach well, > rather than simply caving to possible concerns about > Moslem students as the paper > asserts.] > > Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Bill, > > > > I still think the two are related. The people who watched > kitty genovese get clobbered assumed a social fabric in > which women dont get beaten to death under their windows > and didnt think it their particular responsibility to try > to save her life. The milgrim subjects assumed that the > world was not the sort of place where experimenters allow > participants to actually torture one another. And, in > fact, they were right. Well, in that particular instance. > > > > My former colleague, James Laird, who does research about > this sort of stuff, thinks I am a real bonehead about it, > so you neednt take my views too seriously. > > > > Nick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > * From: * Bill Eldridge <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * To: * [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;The Friday Morning > Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <mailto:[email protected]> > > * Cc: * Carl Tollander <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > * Sent: * 5/24/2007 8:48:16 PM > > * Subject: * Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] Teachers drop the > Holocaust to avoid offendingMuslims|the Daily Mail > > > > Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Carl, > > > > I am trying to get my Psych 101 in order: Was the kitty > genovese incident > > the one that led to that horrendous series of experiments > that demonstrate > > that if > > you give people a shock console (or what they THINK is a > shock > > console) and ask them politely to do so, they will > cheerfully use shocks > > that they think are lethal, just so long as they are told > to? > > > > Unfortunately not - it's about how neighbors ignore > horrible things going on in their insular world. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese > > What it really might represent is how facts are > distorted to make events look worse than they > are, especially when a newspaper's involved: > > http://www.oldkewgardens.com/ss-nytimes-3.html > > I use to live across from a bar, and one night I saw > two guys squaring off on a sidewalk and > a third come from behind and break a bottle over one's > head. I was on the phone to 911 in > a flash, and by the time I'd quickly described the > scene unfolding to the dispatcher, the 3 of them > were giving each other hugs and going arm-in-arm back > into the bar to drink some more. > > In a similarly bad neighborhood where I flipped my > bike and broke my collarbone, I was > staggering around in a great deal of pain, but got a > car to stop (cautiously) late at night in just a few > minutes, > and they were a great help in getting me to a > hospital. Good Samaritans still exist. > > I'm intrigued by one line in the article, "But the > same department deliberately avoided teaching the Crusades > at Key Stage 3 (11- to 14-year-olds) because their > balanced treatment of the topic would have challenged > what was taught in some local mosques." It makes it > sound like there's a good balanced way of explaining > the Crusades as anything but a good deal of > Euro-thuggery intent on dealing a good come-uppance to > the well-entrenched local population some thousands of > miles away. Would make for good entertainment > to hear this rationale at least. > > Personally, I think most grade school teachers are > better off trying to teach simpler, les s contentious > topics > well (even if ignoring whether Columbus was actual ly > Catalonian and other possibly interesting side issues) > instead of being too focused on fuzzy goals of > teaching tolerance and sensitivity, as if there were much > of that in history. > > Regarding humor and genocide, I think of the Nazis as > a pretty humorless, mystical bunch. > Somehow it didn't seem to deter them from genocide. > > reminds me of the stoners that jg showed us at arrowhead, > who would run out > > from the crowd, throw a stone, and then sink back into the > anonymity of the > > crowd. > > > > > > Thought experiment: if all humor were forbidden, would > genocide be > > possible??? In the Pleistocene context, with many small > groups in > > desperate conflict for unpredictable resources, what was > humor FOR? > > > > N > > > > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Carl Tollander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL >> PROTECTED]> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL >> PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: 5/24/2007 2:52:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [WedTech] Teachers drop the Ho >> locaust to avoid >> > offending Muslims|the Daily Mail > > > >> Nick asks: >> >Do we need a science of Comparative Genocideology? >> >> Closest I've seen that starts to address this is Chapter 15 >> from Philip >> Bobbit's book "The Shield of Achilles" >> titled "The Kitty Genovese Incident and the War in Bosnia >> ". I'll bring >> it by FRIAM. >> >> C. >> > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
