Russ wrote-
The question then is how do we understand/explain/talk about such
phenomena from a scientific perspective.
Perhaps this is the sticking point. The "scientific perspective".
The way 'science' is being applied here doesn't seem to be working.
How are you each using it? Do you agree on that?
It looks like you have to agree on something somewhere in order to
establish a base from which to investigate less-agreed-upon things.
Perhaps the issue lies is the definition of science and its workings;
how you are using it: and needs to be examined and expanded or altered
to suit the facts.
From out here:
You all are obviously 'first persons' for all human needs and
interactions. You walk and talk, etc. You know how to understand and
act from this first-person place without any thought at all. You know
how to observe and interpolate, rightly or wrongly. You already know
and do these things, yes.
The issue arises when you investigate how you do these things.
You are clearly discussing all this from a first person perspective,
in that you are clear about your particular take on the issue (at
least you are consistent) and unable to see the other's perspective
with the same ease you see your own.
If there were a 'third person perspective' in here, wouldn't the
discussion be more accessible to all of you, since there would be no a
priori first person identity with the issues?
What if scientific method could offer you two some neutral agreed-on
ground to start with?
Maybe look into examining / changing your ideas of what scientific
investigation is.
Below the wiki def of scientific method. (my font size change)
? Do either or both of you [think/know/feel ] Is it possible to be
objective about your own objectifying? Can we truly be unbiased about
our own awareness / existance? is that evolutionarily viable? (As long
as you are not a Vulcan, at least?)
Having followed this discussion with interest, if not always
agreement, I am beginning to feel like one of those people hanging
over the railings at a rodeo; watching breathlessly, hooting and
hollering, eyes widening at unexpected moves... Figured I might drop
something in the ring and see what happens. Usually, of course, these
actions go unnoticed by the riders, understandably focused on things
much closer to home. Ahem. As it were.
Tory
ps: Nick, the torrential rains moved west, fyi.
Scientific method refers to bodies of techniques for investigating
phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating
previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must
be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurableevidence
subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method
consists of the collection of data through observation
andexperimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]
Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another,
identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other
methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses
as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test
these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to
dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider
domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent
structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups
of hypotheses into context.
Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the
conviction that the process be objective to reduce biased
interpretations of the results.
Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data
and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other
scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to
verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called
full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability
of these data to be established.============================================================
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