I agree that it's an important subject. And I agree completely with you and DSW -- although I think his "Truth and Reconciliation" series on the Huffington Post a while ago on the subject was a bit overboard. I liked his * Evolution for Everyone* book quite a lot. (See, for example, this post<http://russabbott.blogspot.com/2007/05/wilson-talks-about-his-book.html>for some pointers.)
-- Russ Abbott ______________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles cell: 310-621-3805 blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ ______________________________________ On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Nicholas Thompson < [email protected]> wrote: > Russ, > > Well, let's see what DSW suggests! I think he is in Australia, or > something, at the moment, but he is better about email than any human of > his degree of busy-ness I know, so we might get an answer. > > Look. I don't even pretend to be able to participate in a conversation in > which "computational framework" is the subject. However, if one is looking > for a set of rules that that relates degree of possession of trait in the > groups of one generation to the possession of the traits in the subsequent > generation, quantitative inheritance (aka=trait group selection) is such a > rule-set. > > All sorts of luck with your project. I think it's a really important > issue to sort out. I happened to have a conversation with a Famous Person > Who Ought To Have Known Better yesterday who stoutly informed me that kin > selection was the only way to go. I have not thought particularly hard > about it recently, but it seems to me that the answer is ultimately > philosophical. Is it the case that we can make a choice about how we talk > about the subject, or is it the case that we HAVE to include group effects > in the conversation to understand what is going on. As I think David would > say, whether the group members are related or not is a red herring. The > fact is that differential group effects is a vector (one of several) that > effects the relative frequency of alleles. IMHO. > > Sorry to keep getting you off your topic, but my conversation with the > FPWOTHKB and your introduction of the topic here got me all excited again. > > Nick > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Russ Abbott <[email protected]> > *To: *[email protected];The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 3/10/2010 7:24:00 AM > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Genetic algorithm for groups > > Thanks, Nick, > > You raise interesting and difficult points: what is a group (when it is not > predefined in the problem), what are its properties, etc. I took my first > pass through your paper too quickly to understand your solution. > > But I'm not facing that problem. In a computational GA environment, I don't > have to answer the question of what a group is. It is (trivially) a member > of my population. All I'm asking is whether there are computational systems > that let me work with such a computational framework and whether there are > any papers about such a computational framework. > > Since I'm not getting any answers to my actual questions, I'm supposing > that the answer is that there aren't any such systems. > > On the other hand, one might argue that what I'm really asking for is a > Pitt style learning classifier system. Within that framework, one evolves > collections of rules, which is basically what I'm asking for except that > instead of thinking of each element of each group as necessarily a rule it > is an individual more generally conceived. > > > -- Russ Abbott > ______________________________________ > > Professor, Computer Science > California State University, Los Angeles > > cell: 310-621-3805 > blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ > vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ > ______________________________________ > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Nicholas Thompson < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> russ, >> >> I little sober reflection (no pun intended) will reveal that David Sloan >> Wilson's "trait group selection" is actually a mechanism for >> quantitative inheritance of group traits. See >> >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/id49.html<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/id49.html> >> >> >> where you can download the pdf by clicking on the abstract >> >> or download the pdf directly from >> >> >> http://www.clarku.edu/faculty/nthompson/1-websitestuff/Texts/2000-2005/Shifting_the_natural_selection_metaphor_to_the_group_level.pdf >> >> The full treatment of this mechanism is in DSW's Natural Selection of >> Populations and Communities (?) 1979, i think. >> >> Enjoy, >> >> N >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, >> Clark University ([email protected]) >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> >> http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Russ Abbott <[email protected]> >> *To: *ERIC P. CHARLES <[email protected]> >> *Cc: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[email protected]> >> *Sent:* 3/9/2010 9:12:04 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Genetic algorithm for groups >> >> Thanks, Eric. Very interesting message. But it didn't address the >> questions I asked. >> >> Does anyone know of any work on a genetic algorithm system that supports >> group selection -- or of papers in that specific area. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> -- Russ Abbott >> ______________________________________ >> >> Professor, Computer Science >> California State University, Los Angeles >> >> cell: 310-621-3805 >> blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ >> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >> ______________________________________ >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:16 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Russ, et. al, >>> I should send an email focusing on group selection, but instead I will >>> point out, on a very related note, that there was a pretty nice altruism >>> article published by some of the people on the list not too long ago ;- ) >>> http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/9/2/4.html -- That article demonstrates >>> that a strategy that always co-operates, but changes partners if faced with >>> a defector, out performs strategies that only co-operate under certain >>> circumstances (e.g., the much revered tit-for-tat). At least one of the >>> authors knows Wilson pretty darn well, and another got to present the paper >>> in a symposium with Wilson and got pretty good compliments. >>> >>> I had a fantasy about creating a genetic algorithms version of the same >>> program, but got side tracked on other projects. The idea was that we would >>> start with a population of all non-co-operators non-leavers. Each would have >>> a "chromosome" where there was a low probability it would "mutate", gaining >>> or losing whichever ability the gene represented. Presumably it would take >>> many, many generations for co-operation to emerge as a contender in the >>> population. Given a limited number of generations, most ! populations would >>> be unlikely to evolve altruism (i.e., the occasional mutation would be >>> quickly eliminated). However, the interesting study would be too look back >>> at those populations in which altruism DID evolved, and determine the order >>> of events. Our hypothesis, based on the prior simulation (and the really >>> good logic behind it) would be that leaving evolves first, then >>> co-operation. At least, that would be the typical pattern. >>> >>> It would be a really fun study, and I would be happy to help put it >>> together. It would be done already except for two factors 1) a dispersion of >>> the interested parties and 2) new Netlogo versions required tweaking the >>> original program more than the remaining brain-power allowed. The last >>> version was pretty heavily documented (admittedly by people who are not >>> skilled at the art), so it shouldn't take a skilled programer too long to >>> fix it up. >>> >>> Anyway, already a longer email than intended, >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> P.S. Nick knows the group! selection stuff backwards and forwards. I can >>> do pretty good ! schpeel too, and you should scold me for not having >>> answered your question more exactly. The reason this is related is because >>> group selection is only an interesting conversation (i.e., only a >>> controversial conversation) if you are trying to use it to explain the >>> evolution of altruism. >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 08:52 PM, *Russ Abbott <[email protected]>*wrote: >>> >>> David Sloan Wilson has been an advocate of group >>> selection<http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/wkoenig/wicker/NB4340/Wilson&Wilson2008.pdf>in >>> evolution for quite a while. (And I think he's right.) What I'd like to >>> know is whether anyone knows of any work on group selection in a >>> (computational) genetic algo! rithm context. >>> >>> >>> Suppose I wanted to evolve a fleet of cars for a car rental agency. One >>> approach would be a genetic algorithm in which the population elements were >>> fleets, each of which is a collection of cars. Crossover would generate >>> children fleets some of whose cars were copied from each parent. >>> >>> In addition, I want to assume that the car properties themselves are >>> evolvable. So one could, for example, crossover two cars to produce >>> offspring cars with properties from the two parents. >>> >>> This has also been called multi-level selection because evolution takes >>> place at multiple levels at once: in this case at the fleet level and at the >>> car level simultaneously >>> >>> Is anyone aware of a framework that supports this sort of process? Or is >>> anyone aware of any papers that describe results in this area? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> -- Russ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Russ Abbott >>> ______________________________________ >>> >>> Professor, Computer Science >>> California State University, Los Angeles >>> >>> cell: 310-621-3805 >>> blog: http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ >>> vita: http://sites.google.com/site/russabbott/ >>> ______________________________________ >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> Eric Charles >>> >>> Professional Student and >>> Assistant Professor of Psychology >>> Penn State University >>> Altoona, PA 16601 >>> >>> >>> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
