Eric, you said, "Would you really tell me that I cannot talk intelligently about the ability of the stomach wall to resist acid without knowledge of the atomic structures underlying acid-resistance?" Yes, I would say that you probably can't talk intelligently about the ability of the stomach wall to resist acid without knowledge of the atomic structures underlying acid-resistance. How else are you claiming to talk intelligently about it?
If your point is that the digestive biologist doesn't care why the stomach wall resists acid because all she cares about is what goes on inside the stomach. And if you are also saying that she assumes that other people can explain how the stomach wall keeps all that stuff contained without damage to itself. Then that's fine. It's like me saying that I don't know the details of computer engineering. All I care about is that the computer interprets instructions in a certain way. But I and the digestive biologist both acknowledge that there is an explanation of the issues we are ignorant of and that other people know what those explanations are. That seems to be different from the behaviorist who says that it is pointless to ask for an explanation because it doesn't make sense to ask the questions I'm asking. -- Russ On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:51 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[email protected]> wrote: > Russ sayeth: "They [behaviorists] seem unwilling to ask how the entity > being reinforced works so that they can explain how the reinforcer works. > That just seems like bad science." > > Uhm.... weird assertion. Lets say that I am a digestive biologist, and you > ask me to explain the atomic structure underlying differences between > stomach and intestinal walls. Am I not justified in telling you that you > have asked a great question that is simply not in my area of expertise. Am I > not justified in telling you that there are people who specialize in > answering such questions, that they are molecular biologists, and that they > work down the hall? Would you really tell me that I cannot talk > intelligently about the ability of the stomach wall to resist acid without > knowledge of the atomic structures underlying acid-resistance? Would you > really tell me that digestive biology seems like bad science? > > I doubt you would tell me any of those things. > > Why should psychology be different? There are perfectly good people who > study the relevant animal innards. They are physiologists and > neuro-biologists. They have offices down the hall. Their work is fascinating > and I like to hear their talks. There are some people who work > cross-disciplines. Some of them do cool work, others do crap work, and still > others do cool work that they explain in crap ways. What more do you want me > to say? > > --------- > > Also, I told you that we know a lot about what makes something a > reinforcer. Let us pick an arbitrary set of neutral stimuli, say a card with > vertical lines. I can make a rat such that the vertical lines reinforce the > rat's behavior. THE THINGS I DO TO THE RAT explain why the vertical lines > act as a reinforcer. When you ask "why" the vertical lines reinforce the > rat, I will answer by telling you about how I put the rat through > such-and-such procedure.* Thus I WILL have explained why vertical lines > reinforce this rat. > > Again, this explains not only the origins of the behavioral phenomenon, but > also the origins of the concurrent neural phenomenon that are a component > part of the process in question. > > If you asked why the volcano in iceland blew its top, and I told you that > it blew because the rocks at the top of the mountain flew into the air, you > would stare at me like I was an idiot. Why? Because you asked me to explain > something that happened, and I answered by merely describing back a part of > the thing to be explained. Similarly, all neuronal happenings are part of > "the thing to be explained" when you are explaining reinforcement. > > Eric > > *Most likely my story will involve repeatedly pairing the vertical lines > with food, but there are other options available. Heck, I can make a rat > that does not find food reinforcing. I can even make a rat that is born not > finding food reinforcing. Alas, those rats won't live very long. > >
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