Chris, Thanks. See my last rather garbled note about the fact that treating coporate vs government power as a zero-sum game might be a serious thinking error. We all seem to fear most corporate AND government power. That is a huge point to agree on. I think that if we can keep that agreement in mind we can move TOGETHER beyond slogans. But i am not sure how.
n Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([email protected]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > [Original Message] > From: Chris Feola <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> > Date: 5/17/2010 9:21:00 AM > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] WARNING: Political Argument in Progress > > Hey Nick, > > I'm a libertarian; I hope you don't mind me taking a crack at it. > > Most small L libertarians I know (I'm distinguishing us from the Libertarian > Party, which is another thing altogether) are deeply cynical people. It's > not that we believe corporations are good; it's that EVERYONE gets that > corporations operate on special principles, but many miss that same strain > in politicians and political parties. In general, people don't root for > corporations the way they root for politicians -- with the exception of the > Apple fan boys, natch. > > So here's the thing: it's not so much that libertarians favor corporations > over government; it's that we fear history has shown over and over that > corporations USE government to solidify their positions, crush competition > and prevent innovation. > > Note the activities in my old field: media. Do you think it coincidental > that the major media companies favor laws like that struck down by the > Supreme Court, which outlaw corporate speech but exempt media companies? > Notice there is no choice on the table for NO corporate speech, which I > guess would be your position; the only discussion is which corporations get > to speak. Shockingly, The New York Times et al are in favor of a system > where they get free reign and all those pesky internet startups and > such...do not. > > So that's it, in a nutshell. We don't favor corporations over government. We > think that people are rightly suspicious of corporations, and should be more > suspicious of government. We oppose as the worst thing the melding of > corporations and government. And we see little to choose from between Sen. > Mary Landrieu (D-British Petroleum) and Dick Chaney (R-Haliburton). > > > cjf > > Christopher J. Feola > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > Of Nicholas Thompson > Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:30 PM > To: Russell Gonnering > Cc: [email protected] > Subject: [FRIAM] WARNING: Political Argument in Progress > > Russ, > > It is my deepest belief that if our country is to survived, people who > disagree need to learn to argue with each other. You and I really disagree > on this one, so on my account, we are obligated to argue. > > On the other hand, I DON'T believe that others should unwillingly be a > party to such arguments, so I changed the thread. > > We obviously agree that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts > absolutely. So, we are both made nervous when power starts to accumulate > in small numbers of hands And I bet we believe, both, that having power > leads to the accumulation of more of it. .And, we both seem to agree that > dangerous, irreversible accumulations of power are occuring in our society, > right now? > > OK, so far? Where we seem to disagree is where the dangerous power is > accumulating in our society. I think it is in large corporations; you > think it is in governments. Still on board? > > Why don't I stop there, and see if you agree with this characterization of > our disagreement. > > Nick > > Still ok? > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Russell Gonnering <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > CoffeeGroup <[email protected]> > > Date: 5/15/2010 1:39:10 PM > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What you can do. > > > > Nick- > > > > Why not have both Fox and the BBC? Or more to the point, why not Fox and > PBS? > > > > Fox is not like a government in the following ways: It can't tax me, it > doesn't redistribute my wealth, it can't imprison me, it can't execute me > or otherwise control me and I can turn them off. If they do not satisfy > their viewers and their shareholders, they go out of business. Unless they > are "too big to fail", which is a whole other discussion. > > > > I have this innate dislike for government censorship, and a very strong > distrust of politicians. > > > > I like the fact that government is limited, and so did the framers of the > Constitution. I can see no historical evidence of a political entity, that > when granted absolute power over the flow of information to society for an > unlimited period of time, used that power to increase or even merely insure > the liberty of its citizens. Can you? If ever there is a situation of > giving megaphones to people to yell "Fire" in the theater, it would be > that. > > > > To each his own, I guess. > > > > Russ #3 > > > > > > > > Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ > > [email protected] > > www.emergenthealth.net > > > > > > On May 15, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > > > Russ, > > > > > > The thing I have never understood is why libertarians do not see > > > corporations for what they are: HUGE governments. > > > > > > Is it really the case that you would rather get your news from Fox than > > > from the BBC. It seems to me that the question about whether we are to > be > > > subject to government control is water over the dam. The question is > only > > > WHICH government are we going to be controlled by. I would prefer to be > > > controlled by the government with the most responsible governance > > > structure. I am no socialist, but I will take the BBC over Fox ANY > TIME. > > > > > > Gotta Run, > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > > > Clark University ([email protected]) > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
