Very good point, Eric. Yes, that makes sense. Terminology is too fuzzy. I need to go back to my readings on emergence to see if the terms "top-down" are clearly defined. Peggy
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 3:01 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[email protected]> wrote: > Peggy, > I think a possible confusion is that changing "the environment" does not > necessarily produce a top-down effect. The terminology is too fuzzy. For > example, you can easily take a model of fish schooling, which will look > quite a bit like fish in water, then change some parameters so it is like > they are in oil. The schools will look different. However, all the effects > will still be the result of micro-interactions of each fish with it's > immediate environment - you just have different bottom-up effects. Because > I'm not sure how to tell which changes in the environment would qualify as > top-down, that's about the best I can offer. > > Does that make any sense? > > Eric > > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35 PM, *peggy miller <[email protected]>*wrote: > > responding to Nick's question on what I meant on my emergence question: > > What I am wondering related to emergent behavior patterns is whether, for > example, with the "flocking syndrome", if put into a different top-down > environment, would it possibly retain the flocking characteristics, but > shift them to flock with others, or look for other entities to flock with -- > or whether the tendency to flock itself would go away. > This relates to questions, thoughts I have, about how if one believes that > humans have flocking characteristics (some of them) (as I do believe) then > if environmental factors stop ability to communicate or somehow alter > ability of those active flockers to flock in groups they are used to, (let's > say, for argument, to try to bring about progressive change that helps the > planet) will they simply a) regroup for different battles to push for/with; > b)stop regrouping; c) get new types to group for planetary battles. > So I wondered if studies on shifting top-down impacts on emergence behavior > exist. > > Peggy Miller > Missoula, Mt. > > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[email protected] <#12c4c68791c10eb3_> > > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" < > [email protected] <#12c4c68791c10eb3_>> > Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:14:40 -0700 > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations > > Peggy, > > > > I felt I “ought” to be able to answer this question … note the use of modal > language. ( My sense of obligation and five dollars will get you a [small] > cup of coffee in any restaurant in Santa Fe.) But I am not sure I quite > understood your question. Is there a particular situation to which the > question applies that you could describe to me? It might be easier to > answer in the particular. > > > > Nick > > > > *From:* [email protected] <#12c4c68791c10eb3_> [mailto: > [email protected] <#12c4c68791c10eb3_>] *On Behalf Of *peggy > miller > *Sent:* Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:12 AM > *To:* [email protected] <#12c4c68791c10eb3_> > *Subject:* [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations > > > Since "top-down" impacts emergent behavior, have there been studies that > take the same number and types of entities that are known to have emergent > behavior of some predictable form -- like flock of set type of birds, and > systematically change the "top" environment those entities exist in to study > whether it impacts the emergent behavior that forms? > > Thanks for any input from you all. > Peggy Miller > > > > > -- > Peggy Miller, owner/OEO > Highland Winds > Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings > 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > Eric Charles > > Professional Student and > Assistant Professor of Psychology > Penn State University > Altoona, PA 16601 > > > -- Peggy Miller, owner/OEO Highland Winds Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
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