Nick -
The thing that might not be obvious is that Frank's *electric* bill went
down. If he were heating *with* electricity, the difference might not
be as significant... I suspect his (gas?) heating bill is a similar
number of BTUs down, they are just cheaper BTUs than ones coming out of
electric resistive elements (including incandescent bulbs).
Also, ceiling fixture lighting tends to heat the *ceiling* which only
helps much with the overall heating of the space if you have a 2 story
house and you are talking about the ground floor lights. Unless you use
*heat lamps* with good reflectors directing the IR into the room (not
dissipating it in the fixture).
I actually buy 125W infrared bulbs to go into certain fixtures in my
house for the very reason you describe earlier... one of these as a
reading light over my shoulder (or hanging from my first floor ceiling)
not only adds BTUs to my house in general but increases the comfort in
the chair I am sitting in, allowing me to be comfortable even if the
space is lower than usual. My solar system works pretty well
throughout all the months except Dec/Jan and a little Nov/Feb, so during
those months I crank a lot of firewood through my woodstoves and put in
my IR bulbs in a few choice locations. I used to use an electric
mattress pad as well... The net cost of these was pretty small
compared to using electric space heating...
The rules of conservation of energy (physics not sociopolitical) are
pretty simple, but the detailed implications of *comfort* and
*economics* are a bit more subtle.
- Steve
On 2/15/17 10:20 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Frank, ‘n all.
It looks like I am… not to put too fine a point on it… */WRONG/* about
this. I hate when that happens. It seems WILDLY counter intuitive to
me, but so, I should admit, does most of physics.
You are all going to have to explain it to me VERY patiently, perhaps
over coffee, perhaps on Friday.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank
Wimberly
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 15, 2017 1:54 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Naïve physics question
Nick,
Over the last 2 or 3 years I have replaced most of our incandescent
light bulbs with equivalent (light output) LED bulbs. Our electric
bill has gone down about 20% summer and winter.
When I worked in the Robotics Institute I was leader of a project to
put sensors all over a fluorescent lamp factory to increase yield.
That is, to reduce the number of defective bulbs (out of millions).
The Westinghouse engineers told us that certain large office buildings
were optimized for minimum energy use for lighting and heat in a
method that involved keeping the lights on all night. This, however,
caused a public relations problem in that people who saw them lit up
complained about their wasting energy.
Frank
Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918
On Feb 15, 2017 1:37 AM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthomp...@earthlink.net
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
All—
Can I piggy back on to Gary’s question with one of my own. Much
more naïve. Even tho I am an ardent conservationist, I believe
that claims for energy saving from light bulbs that don’t spill
heat only approach truth in the warmest parts of our country.
Where yearly annual temperature average is less than human
comfort, the cost from heat loss from incandescent bulbs is
compensated by a diminishment in the cost of heating by other
means. This works particularly well with a reading lamp, which is
warming you while it lights you. Now in summer, the loss of heat
from bulbs is actually a very bad thing because it has to be
compensated for with airconditioning. But summers in most of the
country are way shorter than winters.
I am sure I am going to get some sort of a lecture on the second
law, here. Spilled heat from inefficiently deployed light sources
is STILL more expensive than heat directly extracted from gas or
oil. Not sure how to think about that.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Robert J.
Cordingley
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 PM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Naïve physics question
Seems like from a thermodynamics question you can first think of
having two identical systems with identical energy inputs. Unless
one of the systems is capable of storing energy in some form
differently from the other the equilibrium temperatures should be
the same.
Now CFBs emit more of the their input energy as light which since
the containers are transparent (presumably to the same light
that's emitted, visible, UV, infrared) it will escape more easily.
Incandescents generate a lot of heat for the same energy input
which may not escape as easily as the light energy. It will depend
on the thermal conductivity of the container's materials etc. If
the CFB were 100% efficient all it's energy will leave immediately
in a container that is 100 % transparent to its 'light' and show
no temperature increase. If the incandescent's heat is transmitted
as infrared energy at 100% efficiency along with any light then
its temperature will show no increase either. So the answer may
have more to do with the properties of the containers than the
properties of the lights. Practically, I'd expect A to warm up
more than B because B's light energy will escape more easily with
materials we are familiar with.
If both containers are opaque to all light (UV, visible and IR)
and have the same thermal conductivity properties we are back to
the first paragraph.
2c
Robert C
On 2/14/17 8:01 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
Since there are some non-naïve, i.e. professional physicists,
as well as just gererally smart people in FRIAM, I pose the
following fun question. Given: two transparent, sealed
containers filled with air - one contains an incandescent
light bulb A that consumes 100 watts of energy; the other
container contains a fluorescent light bulb B that also
*consumes* 100 watts of energy. Since B is of a more efficient
design, it will produce more light than A. Assuming the same
color temperature light is produced by A and B, and ignoring
any feedback effects of rising temperatures inside the
respective containers, will the temperatures inside the
containers reach the same temperature? Naïve physicist G (me)
thinks that since more light is escaping from the container
containing B, that its temperature will rise less. G also
thinks that if the containers are opaque, that the
temperatures will rise by the same amount. But G is besieged
with doubts. Please help G.
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Cirrillian
Web Design & Development
Santa Fe, NM
http://cirrillian.com
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Member Design Corps of Santa Fe
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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