Steve, I too would prefer the term asocial rather than anti. However, I have, on occasion, been a 'domestic terrorist' which is pretty anti-social. I can really enjoy being part of a team — for a couple of decades I played basketball 3+ hours a day, 7 days a week. I was, what they called it at the time, a "hang round" — pre-initiate — with the Hell's Angels. I was a youth leader in the LDS church, etc., etc. But, with the exception of the church (wasn't my choice), I was never a "member" of any group. What prevents me from joining any group is the extent to which it "codifies" itself — i.e. defines itself as a kind of set, with rigid criteria for being a member of that set. If I accept / agree with / behave according to only a subset of that criteria, I will not be allowed to be a member, nor would I wish to be. davew
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: > Glen claims "antisocial" and I think Dave has mentioned his own > "tendency to withdraw from society" (my paraphrase, I welcome > correction or elaboration. I hypothosize that *many* who are > significantly engaged in online discussion/community may well fit one > of the myriad positions on (and near?) the anti-social spectrum?> I > personally prefer to consider myself to have "asocial tendencies". > I'm not entirely uncomfortable in social groups, but I know I tend to > prefer smaller groups or sub-groups within a larger group, to the > extreme of engaging mostly in serial one-on-one conversations at > dinner parties. I tend to reserve the term "anti-social" for > something a bit more active in the sense of not only avoiding engaging > in social groups/activities, but being hostile (openly or not) toward > such groups. I can admit to being somewhat judgemental about large- > group activities (attending pop culture events en-masse, including > political rallies and street protests), but more in the sense of "I > wouldn't be caught dead doing that!" rather than "anyone who > participates in such things are mindless idiots!" I even accept that > under the right circumstances I have been known to participate. I do > attend small gathering performances/readings/events and in most cases > find their downside more about the tedium than the actual > content/experience itself.> My father (1927-2014) was a bit of a paradox on > this topic. He was > born and raised amongst his hillbilly relatives. His father (my > grandfather (1898-1975) and grandmother(1899-1950) were the first of > their generation to get an advanced education (MS/BS degrees vs > typically 8th grade) and escape the day to day circumstances of their > otherwise humble origins. My grandmother, despite education and > living in a small city through her adult life, never left her > "mountain origins" while my grandfather fashioned himself much more of > a "modern man". My own father spent his self aware life in one of > three uniforms, two in the service of the US Government. The first > was in the Boy Scouts of America for his teen years. The Second as a > recruit in the US Navy at the very end of WWII, not leaving dock until > after VJ day, spending his 3 years helping to clean up after the war > in the Pacific. The third was as an employee of the US Forest Service. > His roots and instincts were those of a very independent person who > felt by some measure that every man was an island, yet his practice > was to find his place as an island as a member of an Archipelago. > Half the allure of the Boy Scouts and of the US Forest Service was his > draw to spend time in the wilds... the other half seems to have been > to *also* have the sanction of the authority of a uniform and a set of > rules. His stint in the Navy may have been the same.> Many of his anecdotes > about both the USN and USFS involved him > recognizing/discovering/exercising the distinction between blind > observance of rules and the recognition and pursuit of the spirit of > the rules, and him having ultimately prevailed over strict > interpretations with common sense actions in the spirit when not the > letter of the regulations. His proudest moment may have been when his > court martial was dismissed abruptly after being charged for > deriliction/AWOL during the Port Chicago disaster in 1944 where 320 > Navy men were killed and a similar number were injured. He was a > medical aide/assistant on his ship which was docked near the disaster > and when the injured personnel began arriving, he reported for duty > without being called. After several shifts of non-stop desperate work > to do triage and save the lives (and often limbs) of those harmed, he > returned to his berth only to be arrested for having not been > available when they came to collect him for duty in the emergency. > They apparently ignored or didn't believe his "alibi" and he went > through the whole formal process of being held for a court marshal > which fortunately was quite prompt and at least there, when he gave > his account, the "judge" recognized his earnest honesty and apparently > he was not the first or only one to be mis-charged/handled in this > way. There were at least another dozen altercations of this style > (if not gravity) in his career in the USFS. He seemed to trust > implicitely that the system would ultimately "do the right thing" and > it didn't seem to bother him much that he could-be mishandled while > the "sheels of justice" turned. His USFS career involved a huge amount > of time in the field (forest), even during his mid-career stint in > middle management (District Ranger). It was as if he was > simultaneously addicted and allergic to the basic nature of organized > systems of authority.> In the shadow of his addiction/allergy, I avoided > uniforms entirely > excepting a few months in the BSA at his insistence. I gave over to > the shirt and necktie but it all felt too much like being a member of > the "hitler youth" to me. I was *institutionalized* at LANL for 27 > years with (too) many of the same features. In place of a uniform, I > had a security clearance, a Z-number and a Badge which came with their > own egregious rule-sets and implied authority and paradoxes. During > that time, my best work was done as the de-facto leader of small teams > (3-10). Each time that de-facto leadership lead to a formal > leadership position, it eventually went bad, requiring me to move on > to fresh pastures. I made a couple of lame attempts at rising to > middle management but couldn't hold a straight face during the > interview process, knowing that I didn't respect many (if any?) of my > would-be peers and fearing that I was about to join them by way of the > "Peter Principle". My 27 year career at LANL consisted of patchwork > of jobs like this ranging from 3-7 years in duration. I was very > relieved the day I decided to leave LANL (2008) and shocked at how > much MORE relieved I was the day I surrendered my clearances (2010).> Outside > of my institutionalization in BS (big science), I have often > been self-employed and entrepreneurial and generally fairly > independent in my work. I always saw the benefits of working within > an organizational context to be "convenient" but suspect.> Anecdotally Yours, > - Steve > On 1/15/19 9:18 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote: >> I don't know, man. I'm an antisocial person. But I seem to meet a >> lot of people who truly *enjoy* being in and playing on teams. Teams >> are, by definition, algorithmic, some more, some less. The same >> could be said about going to arena sized concerts, or chanting silly >> things at protests or rallies: Lock Him Up! Lock Him Up! 8^) These >> people don't *seem* like they feel demeaned. They seem energized by >> their mob behavior. Teams are energized when they play "in the >> zone". Etc. Even in the case of the high rank *nodes*. Their >> decisions are more algorithmic than those of the low rank nodes. The >> difference is they have to be *rational* ... they have to encapsulate >> much more of the algorithm inside their heads, whereas the low rank >> nodes have more of the algorithm in the machinery and processes >> around them ... the "extended mind" as it were. The people who "hate >> the government" are *big* team players. That's the problem. They're >> upset because they don't feel like they're part of the team. They've >> been left out (mostly because they can't catch or hit the damned >> ball!). On 1/14/19 10:48 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: >> >>> Oh, it was more than the pomp Wouk bristled at. It was the removal >>> of discretion, as well. The American military is perhaps better >>> than most in that regard, but any military has to operate on >>> algorithms, and nobody likes to be a node in an algorithm. So, I >>> guess my thesis was that in the second world war we got a double and >>> conflicting lesson: how effective an algorithmic system can be AND >>> how demeaning it can be to be part of one. Two solutions present >>> themselves: 1. Hire mercenaries and 2. Automate. Of course we have >>> done both. An officer of your dad’s rank, of course, was an >>> exception and even within that giant system he made big decisions >>> daily, decisions that affected the lives of thousands of people. >>> There is a scene in that same book where an officer is required to >>> make one of those decisions between surely killing 50 strangers or >>> threatening the life of 150 you know that utilitarians are fond of >>> posing. It’s a harrowing scene. I wonder what the relation is >>> between a distaste for government and service as an enlisted >>> soldier. That’s not a rhetorical question. I do wonder. I am >>> thinking there is a high correlation between states with high >>> military participation and states with anti-government politics. >>> When a conservative thinks of “government” is he more likely to >>> think of the military? >>> >>> ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
