And before that at Berkeley, HP Labs, and Bell Labs. C’est moi. ... Bob
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 18:14, Angel Edward <[email protected]> wrote: > > It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at > UNM CS. > > Ed > __________ > > Ed Angel > > Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) > Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico > > 1017 Sierra Pinon > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > 505-984-0136 (home) [email protected] > 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > >> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Bob Ballance!! >> >> ----------------------------------- >> Frank Wimberly >> >> My memoir: >> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >> >> My scientific publications: >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >> >> Phone (505) 670-9918 >> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer >>> than I did, who used to come to Friam. Then he got some kind of honorary >>> position in DC left town temporarily. He had thinning white hair and wore >>> glasses and was about my height. With that unique description someone must >>> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue. >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> ----------------------------------- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> >>> My memoir: >>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>> >>> My scientific publications: >>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well. In the belly of Net Logo, I think. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lee???? Are you out there? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas Thompson >>>> >>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >>>> >>>> Clark University >>>> >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steven A Smith >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frank - >>>> >>>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox. >>>> The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam" >>>> stream... this collection may very well also be the primary contents of >>>> many's TL;DR folder here. >>>> >>>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years >>>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus >>>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to >>>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM. >>>> >>>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who >>>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" >>>> from your memoir. He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s... >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>>> >>>> Steve, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You should write a memoir. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------- >>>> Frank Wimberly >>>> >>>> My memoir: >>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>>> >>>> My scientific publications: >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>>> >>>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Frank - >>>> >>>> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if >>>> only for a short while. I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some* >>>> beast in our various times. >>>> >>>> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in >>>> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst >>>> other USFS families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the >>>> magical rings and voices coming from the handsets in the house were >>>> modulated (whatever that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles >>>> of wires running from tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole... It wasn't hard to >>>> understand the idea that if voices could travel over single wires, that >>>> any one of us on a party line could pick up and hear the other's voices >>>> during a conversation or even that the volume/static on the line would >>>> abruptly change if someone picked up (say to listen in?). It made >>>> perfect sense that such resources (wires on poles) were very scarce and >>>> needed to be shared... I had heard of operator-assisted calling which >>>> made great sense (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent via the >>>> spring-loaded rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my >>>> father showed me the one in the main location at the second forest camp >>>> when I was about 5) and I remember watching/hearing a call go through >>>> it... relays opening and closing as ring pulses went through... >>>> >>>> One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was busy >>>> all the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on the >>>> switches. Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the county >>>> at the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing this >>>> was my first taste of "infrastructure". I don't know what kind of backup >>>> he had... I never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of anyone >>>> else employed... though I do know sometimes there were company trucks >>>> parked at the fenced yard next to his house... probably for new line >>>> buildout? Another father of a friend owned/operated the local "vending" >>>> routes which included soda machines, candy machines and best of all >>>> pinball machines. HIs territory must have been pretty wide because our >>>> 300 town only had one soda/candy machine at each of 2 gasoline stations >>>> and 3 pinball machines at the drug/variety store. I got to see the ones >>>> in their shop behind the house under repair opened up and really got a >>>> kick out of trying to "trace the logic" of a coin-drop/lever-pull, >>>> delivery-chute... and even better, the complex logic of a pinball machine. >>>> Yet another father drove the propane delivery truck (he had a boss who >>>> drove some, but he was the main driver) and another who ran the local >>>> branch of the power - coop along with his wife. They had more trucks >>>> that came in from the next large town (60 miles and maybe 1000 people?) to >>>> do major repairs/upgrades, but he was out in his truck all the time >>>> fixing/installing *something*. Several of these men ran an ad-hoc cable >>>> network in the core of the village... nothing came in by antenna and I >>>> guess they had their own up on a mountain with a rebroadcast system... >>>> the network was down as much as it was up and while *some* of the >>>> customers had to have been paying customers, it was these guys who somewho >>>> cooperatively kept it going. I *knew* that someone besides these men >>>> were *designing* and *building* the systems they maintained (thought the >>>> cable TV thing was more DIY). >>>> >>>> Many years later, we moved to a large town/small-city (2 supermarkets, a >>>> dozen motels and gas stations?) and our neighbors at the edge of town >>>> owned the local AM radio station... they solicited me to clean the station >>>> every Saturday and after a few months of that I graduated to typing up >>>> station program logs and then began to operate the station under >>>> supervision... they were largely "automated" which meant 4 big carousels >>>> with 4-track endless loop (similar to 8-track) cartidges that we would >>>> load with music, PSAs and commercials which were then "programmed" by >>>> inserting pins in different patch-panels... there were two modes... for >>>> example, the system that took over on the top of hour for the network news >>>> would inject one of a small handful of instrumental tunes that could be >>>> faded/interrupted at-will to flip over the newsfeed. The rest of the >>>> time, the system had a priority stack and the commercial/PSAs stack had >>>> priority in the sense that it wanted to play out it's queue within the >>>> allotted time (usually one hour) no matter what... while the music queue >>>> would simply play whenever one of the others were not... only rarely (due >>>> to bad planning) would a commercial or PSA go unplayed. Not every hour >>>> was different, but there were periods (8-12AM, 1-5PM, 6-10PM) that had a >>>> particular character and there was some variation within it. By the time >>>> I was 15 (Freshman in HS) the station owners saw my diligence and >>>> curiosity (the Station Engineer would take the time to explain most >>>> everything there to me in as much detail as I had time for) and offered me >>>> a nighttime live show which I ran for most of my HS years. I always had >>>> the option to fire up the automated system, as I was also trying to do my >>>> homework during that time. I went in to the station before 4PM to handle >>>> the 4-6 news programs (I can still hear Paul Harvey ringing in my ears) >>>> and then the (automated) 6-7 PM "sundown serenade" curated by the wife but >>>> executed by me (most of the time). At 7 we rolled into "the Night Show" >>>> which was conceived by the owners to be something for the "youth crowd". >>>> It was nominally a Rock show but was really Top-40 by their measure... We >>>> had the full array of classic rock vinyl in the shelves and I was allowed >>>> to use (most of) it but there was the top-40 billboard charts to be >>>> serviced which meant a lot of pop-rock and country-rock and pop-pop. >>>> >>>> Yet another exposure to the complexities of "programming" and "logic" from >>>> a somewhat different perspective. The engineer at the time had been on >>>> the predecessor to the NIF fusion project in Livermore (MFE?) >>>> (designing/building the capacitor banks) and clued me in a lot of things. >>>> He was a greasy-haired wiry little hippy that drove an old italian >>>> convertible (very finicky with dual carbs...) and had a penchant for >>>> visiting the bars/brothels in Mexico (this was a border town) and probably >>>> got rolled by someone at least once a year... and had the stories (and >>>> scuffs) to tell about it. He taught me binary logic/arithmetic and showed >>>> me how that related to the somewhat similar/different discrete/analog >>>> systems behind the carousels (all the electronics were exposed, so you >>>> could trace wires and watch relays open/close) and even taught me the >>>> basics of analog circuits including soldering, relays, power >>>> amplifiers/transmitters. Later, as I went into the all-digital world of >>>> Computer Science, It was as if I was learning about Mammals after growing >>>> up among only Marsupials. Of course automobiles had their own share of >>>> analog-discrete logic with an HV (timed) side and a 12V mostly continuous >>>> (but with switches/relays) side. This was the 70s and the autos of >>>> interest were mostly from the 50s/60s. >>>> >>>> I went to LANL in 1981 to work on the Proton Storage Ring which was in >>>> some ways the epitome of an anolog/digital hybrid systems with huge >>>> subsystems being HV and HF while others were "utility" (110/60) and yet >>>> others were TTL. The place was "in flux" all the time... with magnetic >>>> fields (intended and unintended) coming and going effecting everything. >>>> It was a quite the milieu. Moving to HPC was both a relief and a whole >>>> new world... even though I still worked with some analog systems, they >>>> were much less dangerous and much less high speed... the digital stuff >>>> was lickety-split (by those days standards) and the introduction of vector >>>> and parallel (and eventually distributed) processing was new and >>>> interesting. By the time I was mentoring others (90s), the backgrounds >>>> were almost exclusively digital and most if not all of the "kids" that >>>> came through had never even worked on their own cars, much less vending >>>> machine or automated tape carousel logic. >>>> >>>> As Y2K approached, a consultant from SAIC was working in my general >>>> area... we became friends... but his role and way of thinking was >>>> incredibly foreign to me. One of his roles (he felt like a plant from the >>>> military-industrial into the military-scientific establishment) was to >>>> consult on Y2K readiness. My system at the time had been hand-built on >>>> top of UNIX (replacing a VMS system that was falling apart every day) by a >>>> small team (3-5 of us) and while I did not know every line of code in the >>>> system (I had written a good portion of it), we had coding practices and >>>> standards and code-reviews and I was roughly 99.9% confident that we >>>> didn't have a single 2-digit date in the system, nor did we depend on any >>>> libraries or system code which did. The open-source/community nature of >>>> BSD Unix meant that everything we relied on and trusted without inspecting >>>> personally had been inspected by hundreds or thousands of others. The >>>> Y2K problem had been discussed a lot and there were plenty of procedures >>>> in place to encourage (though never ensure) that every code-team/system >>>> had expunged any possible Y2K bugs. My SAIC buddy talked in SLOC and had >>>> metrics up the wazoo about things which almost exclusively did not apply >>>> (well) to our systems as-designed and as-built. There may well have been >>>> (especially in the Business Processing side of the house) some big >>>> risk/holes, but I knew my system intimately and the other major/similar >>>> systems (slightly larger development teams with more turnover) were well >>>> in hand. >>>> >>>> We (the three major systems) also had on-call responsibility and were used >>>> to being called at 3AM if something wasn't right.... *we* had been trained >>>> by the operations staff to not leave them hanging... they could be pretty >>>> easy-going/helpful with those of us who answered our phones and were >>>> easy-going/helpful with them, but the few who thought they shouldn't have >>>> to help stand up a system they built when it fell over (or sprung a leak) >>>> at 3AM on a holiday discovered quickly that they would not be let off >>>> easier just because they were reluctant or pissy about the call. Bottom >>>> line was that we (developers) knew that our systems had to run 24/7/365 >>>> and the 00:00:01 01/01/00 was just like any other day, and if/when/as the >>>> dominoes might start to fall, it was OUR job to be right there standing >>>> back up any of OUR dominoes that might fall on their own or be knocked >>>> down by others. There was a little rivalry between systems (operations as >>>> well as development) but for the most part of someone else's system was >>>> falling down and making a mess (creating possible/implied bugs in other >>>> systems) we all pulled together pretty well. I don't know to this day >>>> if my SAIC friend understood how coordinated and intimate we all were, >>>> because he kept on predicting gloom and doom for us as the date >>>> approached. As it was, there wasn't even much scurry as the >>>> calendar/clocks cranked over Y2K, and I don't remember any acute problems. >>>> We (wanted to?) believed that the ADP side of the house had no end of >>>> problems due to their heavy dependence on commercial >>>> systems/layers/middle-ware/vendors. As I remember it, Y2K was pretty >>>> much a flop everywhere. >>>> >>>> All this in response to "IT is Not Sustainable". I would claim that >>>> virtually NOTHING we build is sustainable... or at least there is a huge >>>> spectrum. Engineering can be incredibly robust within it's design >>>> parameters, but is often incredibly fragile when confronted with a >>>> unexpected conditions... Evolved systems are also simultaneously fragile >>>> and robust. They are robust within the "basins of attraction" implied by >>>> the ecosystem they operate within but once pushed out of those robust >>>> regions they can self-destruct quickly... I've been studying (very >>>> loosely) the myriad examples of species extinction and habitat loss and >>>> cascading failures (in progress and/or impending) in our ecosystems and am >>>> appalled at how unprepared we (humans, engineers, even scientists) are to >>>> apprehend the fragile interconnectedness and "designed for >>>> near-optimal-conditions" we have set up. Not precisely a house of cards, >>>> a line of dominos, a stack of Jenga sticks, but not precisely NOT those >>>> either. >>>> >>>> My recent trip to Europe/Scandinavia opened my eyes to some things I was >>>> previously under-aware of. The evolved-engineered systems of polder and >>>> canal and dike and hydrology in the Netherlands is perhaps the most >>>> impressive. Realizing that they started significantly holding back the >>>> north sea during the "little ice age" (dikes and polders had started >>>> earlier, but this was when they really came into their own?) helps me to >>>> appreciate the difference between what they have done there over centuries >>>> vs what our own Army Corps has done in less than 100... and most to the >>>> point, the ways a whole culture can adapt to things including their own >>>> engineering given many generations, but how we "moderns" don't have time >>>> to adapt culturally to the changes. We DO adapt (the talk of telephones >>>> and the earliest examples leading up to a global wireless, >>>> multi-system-technology mesh/grid being an example), but it isn't clear to >>>> me that our adaptation is *deep* enough to be robust... >>>> >>>> Another example in less detail is what has been come to be called "the >>>> Nordic Secret" which is roughly the response of Scandinavia to the >>>> enlightenment followed by the industrial revolution and perhaps most >>>> acutely the post WWII industrial/cultural explosion in the west. In many >>>> ways they follow the rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know >>>> "a secret" about sustainability, both industrially and culturally. >>>> >>>> The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to >>>> the point... Endogenous... self-generatated... and while we may be >>>> taking down a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest >>>> tragedy seems to be set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our >>>> domisticates and the remaining large mammal species)... though that also >>>> may simply be an anthropocentric view. >>>> >>>> As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable... you name the "it" and it >>>> very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote >>>> notwithstanding)... >>>> >>>> I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an >>>> Eco-Modernist of late... not necessarily wanting to trust that we can >>>> "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our >>>> technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice >>>> (culturally)... and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using >>>> "fire to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than >>>> that which we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) >>>> corner. >>>> >>>> </ramble> >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on its >>>> public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a year, >>>> reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP and >>>> mobile voice services. >>>> >>>> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project >>>> is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines >>>> across 50 Class 5 voice switches. " >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5 >>>> switch at CenturyLink. >>>> >>>> Sorry, but I had to clarify this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frsnk >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------- >>>> Frank Wimberly >>>> >>>> My memoir: >>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>>> >>>> My scientific publications: >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>>> >>>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used >>>> in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 >>>> telephone electronic switching system developed by ... >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------- >>>> Frank Wimberly >>>> >>>> My memoir: >>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>>> >>>> My scientific publications: >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>>> >>>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Frank writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> “This was the telephone network in question.“ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still >>>> used? I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing >>>> for long distance telephone carriers. I was amazed by the seemingly >>>> arbitrary complexity. Complex at a policy and inter-organizational >>>> level, not just the software. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marcus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Date: Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC. We also had code reviews >>>> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay. With a brand >>>> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS >>>> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student. This was the telephone >>>> network in question. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology. The >>>> disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, >>>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the >>>> applications, such as call processing, were epic. Recall that Bell Labs >>>> invented C and Unix. After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at >>>> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began. >>>> I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to >>>> it. Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software >>>> tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Frank >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------------- >>>> Frank Wimberly >>>> >>>> My memoir: >>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>>> >>>> My scientific publications: >>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>>> >>>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Spot on. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by >>>> other people. The problem is that people are selfish. They think that >>>> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once >>>> that too. It's the behavior of teenagers. >>>> >>>> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" >>>> <[email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on >>>> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex >>>> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more >>>> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier >>>> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out. >>>> >>>> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a >>>> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) - >>>> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that >>>> section. >>>> >>>> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a >>>> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>>> Principal, High Performance Coders >>>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow [email protected] >>>> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
