More on 2 types: Vulnerable and Grandiose Narcissism Are Differentially Associated With Ability and Trait Emotional Intelligence https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01606/full
Vulnerable Vs Grandiose Narcissism: Which Is More Harmful? https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201906/vulnerable-vs-grandiose-narcissism-which-is-more-harmful The first article is more credible, I suppose. It seems to my incompetent eye to describe 2 different *subclinical* types. But the second article is more provocative to me because it talks about an *oscillation* in clinical (as opposed to subclinical) NPD, which kindasorta echoes what I tried to say about modes and rates. But what's most interesting, I guess, is that Dunning-Kruger might be at play. Where a narcissist might be incompetent, she might over-estimate her skills (at emotional intelligence as well as whatever else) [†]. The distinction between "trait EI" and "ability EI" is lost on me, however. So I can't quite parse the ending statements of the first paper. I can definitely parse the part about it being an online survey. 8^) [†] We might infer that Trump's narcissism is NOT the problem. It's his sheer incompetence that's the problem. So all this yapping about him being a narcissist might be, at best, wasted breath and, at worst, a red herring distracting from the real problem. On 4/27/20 12:03 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > Sorry for any overemphasis. I was merely *wondering if* there might be 2 > types. I was inferring it partly from the Alternate model in the DSM 5 and > partly from my own sense that the way people talk about them is > contradictory. Your quote from Kernberg only hints at it. > > Being episodic, myself, I could see how there would not be two *types*, but > perhaps two *modes*. 1) defining one's self-esteem based on others' adulation > (external locus) and 2) defining one's self-esteem based on some internal > urgic homunculus (internal locus). If it's modal, then the same person might > display (1) and (2) depending on the time, space, or context, leading to an > apparent contradiction in the arching narrative/ephemeris, but resolving it > by slicing up into episodes. And if it's a *speed* or rate thing (like > fast/slow thinking), then it's plausible that (1) iterates rapidly while (2) > iterates slowly. > > I'll take a look at the Kernberg book. Thanks! > > On 4/27/20 11:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >> Does this quote from Kernberg have to do with your feeling that there are >> two types of narcissist: >> >> >> In general their relationships with other people are clearly exploitive and >> sometimes parasitic. It is as if they feel they have the right to control >> and possess others and to exploit them without guilt feelings--and behind a >> surface which very often is charming and engaging, one senses coldness and >> ruthlessness. >> Very often such patients are considered to be dependent because they need so >> much tribute and adoration from others but on a deeper level they are >> completely unable really to depend on anybody because of their deep distrust >> and depreciation of others. >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 12:42 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> I think I said that person's with NPD are almost psychotic. I checked >> with my wife, a very experienced clinician, and she says that is not >> correct. But she also says that there are not two types. One interesting >> thing that she said is that her mentor, a training analyst, said that after >> treating a narcissist for many years you can uncover a severe obsessional >> personality at which point you have to start again to treat that. That >> implies a treatment length that only someone like Woody Allen can afford. >> I'm not saying that he's a malignant narcissist. >> >> I am speaking over my head but obviously DSM-V may oversimplify. >> >> My wife says that the book I mentioned, "Analysis of the Self" by Kohut >> is not as good as "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" by >> Otto Kernberg. > > > -- ☣ uǝlƃ .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ... FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
