> I am pretty sure grandson Miles would do that for Steve; I don't own a > camera.
I think he'd be happy with a nice sketch. No smartphone? I captured mine for him tonight with the webcam on my laptop from my deck. > > n > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [email protected] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith > Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 9:57 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Manifold Clarification > > Sounds pretty good to me... sorry I missed it! And Frank's invocation of > "envelope" vs "shroud" seems correct and apt. > > Now you are both enlisted to respond when Guerin asks you to go out and take > a picture of your sky/clouds in some direction. > > >> Steve, >> >> Before you came on FRIAM, during the slandering phase of my presentation, I >> argued that a cloud consisted of a complex surface each point on which met >> the following condition: the dewpoint temperature of the air of the air is >> equal to the ambient temperature of the air. Furthermore, "inside" this >> boundary, the dewpoint temp is above the ambient temperature, and outside it >> is below. Both dewpoint temperature This explains why cumulus clouds have >> flat bottoms: cumulus clouds are visualization of rising columns of air. As >> the air rises, its pressure and temperature fall, and when they fall below >> the dewpoint, we see the cloud.. Now this, like any description, is a model, >> and leaves out a lot of complexity. One of the complexities omitted is the >> fuzziness of the boundary, particularly at the top of the cloud. Another >> complexity left out by the model is supper cooled water vapor, which I >> gather occurs because water, to condense, has to find some particle to >> condense on. S! > o ! >> there are parts of the cloud that are saturated but no condensation has >> occurred. In a fire cloud, I gather, not only does the fire add water >> vapor, it adds soot, so, I am guessing, condensation occurs more rapidly and >> also, guess heaped upon a guess, the release of the latent heat in the water >> vapor also occurs more vigorously than in a column of non fire related >> cumulus. A third complexity arises from the heat realized by the freezing >> of the condensed water. This two, requires nuclei, and so is delayed way >> above the freezing level of the atmosphere. When the rising column hits the >> stratosphere, there is a temperature inversion and further lifting ceases >> and the cloud, now ice crystals, spreads out laterally in the characteristic >> anvil. >> >> This all I believe because it was shown unto me by God. If God was wrong >> about any of this, I do hope all you former pilots will correct me. >> >> Some day I am going to take a meteorology course. Perhaps I will enroll in >> a meteorology program when I am 85. >> >> Nick >> >> Nicholas Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University >> [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith >> Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 8:30 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Manifold Clarification >> >> >>> I said that no physical object is a manifold. This may be a better >>> answer to Nick's question. The envelope of a cloud, if it could be >>> defined, might be a manifold depending on cusps etc. Those might be >>> handled by combining manifolds of different dimensions. This would >>> not be a realizable project in my opinion. >>> >>> Frank >> More likely darn near a fractal surface... down to the size of a condensed >> droplet of water? Ken Perlin's cloud-modeling comes to mind (multi-scale if >> not literally fractal). >> >> But model(ed/able) as an idealized manifold based on the triple-point >> of water (or is that only clouds forming hail or sleet?) >> >> Nick? mentioned "shroud" which I don't think has a mathematical definition >> but i took it to mean something like a convex-hull (shrink-wrapped surface). >> From work with Stephen on using imagery of clouds (or plumes) to calibrate >> cameras and to estimate their shape as a function of time, we have looked at >> things like silhouette analysis. >> >> Clouds and plumes are not entirely opaque and I believe that is because they >> are "porous'... I'm not sure if there are examples in nature of fully >> saturated water vapor... maybe only in a vacuum? Clouds are (I'm pretty >> sure) condensed droplets of water vapor dispersed among air molecules (I >> suppose I could read up more on cloud science). Plumes (smoke from a >> wildfire) are a little more complex but have a significant component of >> water vapor/droplets as well as hydrocarbon particulates? Guerin is surely >> much more up on this. During the 2011 Cerro Grande Fire, we had *baked* >> pine needles settling around our property... they were not burned, but may >> have been fully charred (all volatiles pyrolized), probably in such an >> oxygen poor environment that they couldn't burn. This was probably a >> "sorting" process... smaller bits may have traveled further while larger >> ones (twigs and branches) fell short(er)... >> >> - Steve >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. >> -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. >> -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. > -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. > -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . ...- --- .-.. ..- - .. --- -. -..-. .-- .. .-.. .-.. -..-. -... . -..-. .-.. .. ...- . -..-. ... - .-. . .- -- . -.. 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