I haven't been able to retrieve the reference but I recently read/heard something about the fact that post-feudal economic/political organizations inherited the paradigm of managing scale and complexity through hierarchy. Capitalistic Republics/Democracies and Socialist/Communist societies with "Central Planning" are both effectively structured this way, in spite of attempting (each in it's own way) to empower or equalize the "common (hu)man"...
I think what Guerin has been babbling <grin> about most recently (at least since Stockholm) is his vision of what an otherwise organized "collective awareness/action/consciousness/intelligence/etc" might be as well as what I think Glen might have been gesturing-at when he criticized Nick's recent offering up of BHL vs NJL. I'd be interested in more discussion of what I think Glen is alluding to with a purists notion of "Collective Action". It might be contradictory to "talk about" something which is inherently not about talking/language, at least (or may entirely) in the common sense of "language". I could rattle on a few more paragraphs describing my own half-baked ideas, but I'll save that until maybe there are more well-baked ideas on the table. - Steve On 7/29/20 3:02 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: > Eric, thank you for your reply. Forgive me for suggesting a larger > systemic problem, connected for me to the problems in our democratic > system, our global economic system, and our international governance > system--and also ultimately related to the existential threat of the > collapse of the living systems that nurture our species. > > The democracy and Constitution our founders gave us at the end of the > 18th century has structural flaws we have tried to overcome. The > global economic system that the victors of WWII gave us at Bretton > Woods in 1944 has similar structural flaws that we have also tried > (not very hard) to overcome. The United Nations that emerged a year > later in 1945 to convene a new international order shares similar > structural problems. There is a pattern here. At its core is > domination and exclusivity. > > The present hesitant shifts in the old narratives--and relationships-- > that created our major social, economic and political systems are the > result of gladiators and dragon-slayers finally targeting the positive > feedback loops that keep reinforcing historic institutional design errors. > > I'll stop here, because I'm even boring myself. > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:49 PM Eric Charles > <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Nick, the "ire" is perfectly fine. I didn't need to couch my > statement in that way, and doing so obviously opened me to Merle's > response. > > Merle, > I think the social criticism is generally valid, but as a critique > of college in particular it is feeds a general confusion about > what college should be about, which ultimately speeds the fall of > the system it seeks to reform. > > One of the obvious legitimate functions of college is > indoctrination into a profession. If you don't want to be > indoctrinated into a profession that college indoctrinates people > into, then college probably isn't for you. If you get out of > college not-indoctrinated-into-a-profession, something has gone > wrong. For example, if you want to get a degree in psychology, you > need to learn to write in some reasonable semblance of APA style. > That includes its own horribly arbitrary set of grammar rules, > formatting and the like. It is screwed up, in some sense, but it > isn't imperialist oppression aimed at minorities. Arbitrary norms > are found in all professions, and conforming to them is part of > being "professional". Also, if you got a degree in psychology, > without anyone forcing you to learn how to approach problems, > write reports, criticize articles, etc., in the manner that > professional psychologists tend to do those things, something has > gone wrong. If you want to think about psychology-related stuff in > the way you already think about those things, then don't go to > college. If you want to learn to think about them in the way the > professional community does, then college might make senes. (Note, > I'm /not /saying you have to /agree /with how the professional > community does things, just that you should be able to replicate, > with some reasonable accuracy, the standard professional > approach.) Where you start from doesn't really matter; though the > curricula /should /be more adaptive to the starting place of the > various students, by the end you should be professional > indoctrinated, that's the whole point. > > In addition, college functions to indoctrinate people into a > certain part of society... or at least it used to. Because, > traditionally, most college graduates don't get work in exactly > the thing they studied, this "hidden curriculum" has often been > more important than the obvious curriculum. College graduates > should be able to read, write, and math at a certain level, > generally think through problems at a certain level, be able to > present ideas to an audience in spoken or written form, be able to > adapt to arbitrary assignments with a certain level of comfort, be > a team leader, be a pro-active follower, etc. Here again, > colleges /should /be more adaptive to the starting place of the > various students, but that doesn't mean their end point should be > abandoned. Here you see big differences between colleges, based on > what they are preparing you for. A college like Swathmore or > Bucknell is preparing you to be able to do those things for > different audiences than Oberlin or Penn State. If you are at a > school that is well designed to prepare you for something you > don't want to be prepared for... that's not imperialist > oppression, that's your having made an unfortunate choice of > where to go. > > Frankly, most colleges currently suck at those two goals, and most > other functions you might want them to have. It is easy to find > studies showing that lots of people graduate college without high > school level reading, writing, and math abilities. It is also easy > to find students who graduate with almost no indoctrination into > the field of study they were purportedly pursuing. > > Under those conditions, it is not surprising that people view a > college degree as largely symbolic marker, required for entry into > the job market or some such nonsense. However, the solution > shouldn't be to make college degrees even less indicative of > having attained particular skills. The less a college degree > indicates having a certain variety of skills, the less value is > provided to employers to select based on the presence of a degree, > and the less value it gives a college graduate to have a degree. > Returning to the indoctrination thing, we can see the (potential) > flaw in the criticism of the curriculum. It doesn't make a lot of > sense to say, "I really want a degree from Rutgers, because > employers value degrees from Rutgers, but I also think Rutgers > should change its curriculum to not be so strict in only letting > people graduate if they actually have the skills employers value." > The value of the degree, particularly to a person trying to get > out of a bad situation, is entirely based on its reliably > indicating some set of skills, and the ability to write in a > semi-formal manner is one of those skills (to return to the more > narrow original context). > > If you formed a solid college curriculum around mastering skills > other than those traditionally trained in college, that would be > fine (and I think that is what Nick is struggling to get at). And > if those skills were valued (economically, or merely for personal > growth) then a degree from that college would be a reliable > indicator of that specific valuable achievement. But that is very > different than allowing students to get through college with > whatever skills they arrived with, just because you are afraid > that enforcing /any /strict requirements might make you an > imperialist monster. The former creates a marketplace for students > to choose from, while the latter just guarantees that college > degrees continue to become less and less valuable, particularly to > the people who most seek to benefit by getting them. > > (Sorry, that ended up longer than intended.... but it's late... I > don't think I can get it tighter right now... and your question > deserves a reply.) > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 11:21 PM Merle Lefkoff > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > And why, O Eric of a deep understanding, are you not a fan? > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:17 PM Merle Lefkoff > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading > requirements were written by White men. In an attempt to > redress this problem I have noticed lately that the NY > Times book review seems to be bending over backwards to > review books written by women of color. > > > > On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:03 PM Frank Wimberly > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. > Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred > word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays > we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those > readings. The readings included the following: > > Catcher in the Rye by Salinger > Victory by Conrad > The Republic by Plato > All the King's Men by Warren > Brave New World by Huxley > > Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors. > > I don't see that any of those had to do with > unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the > personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read > The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in > a later year in a political science or US history > class at Berkeley. > > All this was 54 years ago. > > Frank > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
