Dave,
In all the years of dealing with you wizards, I have never heard of that
taxonomy before. Can you direct me to a child-level introduction to it?
for those not familiar with computing, there are seven different types of
"cohesion" and eight types of "coupling." Communicational coupling is one of
the eight.
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 7:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
What prompted me to tell the story was another account of a convoluted and
complicated reproductive cycle — the sheep tick nematode. It seems like a
single, multi-step, process with each step highly cohesive and therefore
appearing somewhat autonomous, but the sequence being, at minimum,
communicationally coupled.
BTW — for those not familiar with computing, there are seven different types of
"cohesion" and eight types of "coupling." Communicational coupling is one of
the eight.
davew
On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 6:17 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
Dave, hi,
Your description is very close to the original description by Conrad Waddington
for the process he terms “canalization”.
I haven’t read a ton of this stuff, but I believe the first paper (also about
birds, but this time ostriches), was:
author = "Waddington, C.~H.",
title = "Canalization of development and the inheritance of
acquired characters",
journal = "Nature",
volume = "150",
pages = "563--565",
year = "1942"
I expect, however, that Nick and EricC read all this stuff in the crib, because
they have read and written a lot on evolution. But in any case, it gives a
concrete point of departure.
Eric
On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Prof David West <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
Silly question / story – about doves not chickens.
I gave the dove, like all my creatures, a command to be fruitful and multiply.
But I know my dove well, and both the he and she of dovedom tend to be a bit
forgetful, even careless. It seemed to me that they would need some kind of
reminder to sit on any eggs they produce but they seldom had access to an alarm
clock or appointment book. Aha, said I, realizing a cute trick. A simple tweak
of the hormonal system, a system that already has timing elements, will
generate an itchy breast that can be soothed by sitting on the eggs. Of course,
I will need to make sure an egg is sat upon and not a smooth river rock, and I
want the itch to recede after an appropriate time interval, so I will have the
dove secrete a substance that will bond with an element of the chemical
structure on an egg shell and that reaction will require the necessary
egg-sitting interval to complete and sooth the dove-breast until the hormonal
system next secretes the substance.
One process, not two that are somehow related "epiphemomon-ologically." If this
is my theory, might I, if I were an ethologist, construct an experiment to
confirm/deny it?
I think this kind of approach to constructing/confirming a theory would end up
making Occam happier than the approach discussed on the list and at last
Friday's vFRIAM.
davew
On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, at 12:10 PM, [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Well, yes. But is that necessary to expose the fundamental problem? (Not a
rhetorical question, I promise.) In my presentation of the problem I have
tried to reduce it to “one level”, I.e, one color of spheres co=related to one
size. Put in red (large) and yellow (small) spheres into the top and get small
yellow spheres out the bottom. That there are four levels/sizes/colors is just
gravy, isn’t it? Eye candy?
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,sAJ5X6gwlypmzWnIFta7lfEOwtl84TnaopXd0_ZM2xzyUFZGIj4Elm0XsO-Dpg4SYprJciL4MPtw0Fy2CFEtyzWcr9j6iS_l77IhXVe7SIK83DmAGOt-Rzztpi2y&typo=1>
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From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 11:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
So, your homework is to give a conditional independence relationship that
describes the reality. Maybe level is the third variable.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:58 AM <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
No. Sorry. The shape/size thing is a confusion that got introduced early in
the discussion because Jon’s toy was different from Sober’s Toy. Jon’s toy
sorted for shape; Sober’s for size. So, forget shape. We are just talking
about size and color. (See attached illustration).
Now, imagine that we put a shroud around the toy so we cannot see into it. We
put spheres, mixed by size and color into the top and shake it. (Remember that
yellow balls are the smallest, green balls the next size up, etc.) Lo and
behold, all the small yellow balls end up at the bottom. In the shrouded
version, nothing tells us whether the machine is sorting for size and giving us
color or sorting for color and giving us size, right? It’s the golden goose
problem. Is the goose good at finding flecks of gold in the barnyard or does
the goose contain a huge store of gold inside her. Statistically, it doesn’t
make any difference, but if you are thinking of killing the goose for the gold,
you better the hell know which kind of goose you got.
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,za-PiqhLDdWulm_KaaTclQSqvfoYqgAFzubAS8T1j2E_OaU8ORA7ZMzqkDP3A-6q_j0DJzsev8xq7nl0zzZE_CHrywHKoaIEkoRHivOGfsMj&typo=1>
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From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 10:28 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
What it sounds like you're saying is color is independent of shape given size?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 9:56 AM <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
Frank
Doesn’t covariance beg the question of causality? Put another way, mathematics
doesn’t care how the small spheres come to be yellow. Imagine an opaque
“epiphenomenator” so far as the math is concerned it could as well be true that
smallness is getting a free ride on yellowness as that yellowness is getting a
free ride on smallness.
Thanks, again, for helping me think about this.
N
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,xnOrv74Lzh-6J1q59hDzFa1EIwdGF5fO_ELcc5Ar9d42v8O0tq1NwOXTkLtqxpvjQJLRb2_X9hxi8ynmgrsnl8FNdCkAX-Z7mxfXuf-4ElUONIXQPCat&typo=1>
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From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 7:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
Good choice. Our statistical causal reasoning algorithms were based on
conditional independence relations (is A independent of B given C) which are
tested using covariance statistics.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, N
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:32 PM David Eric Smith <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
“Covariance” is the term I see universally used in population genetics.
If one is disappointed at merely using the mathematical label for the only
relation that ever appears in the mathematics, then the question arises what
else one wants from a categorization, if the categorization will always be
quarantined outside the math that carries the consequences.
We had this discussion for “interpretations of quantum mechanics”, and because
Jon had some reasonable things to say about what one does want from such an
interpretation, it seems appropriate to ask whether similar contributions
should be sought here.
Eric
On Aug 16, 2020, at 2:23 PM, <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
Frank,
Well, yes, precisely. And what would you call that relation? It’s a very
common relation, but I don’t seem to have a very good name for it.
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,-XvvP7UQfTHLobknPzMP5r8sAfPOcnSiIH41MKyXIRnSha8tQabypuYpGtyJyuUrQ43mq5ul35krcYjQf9OGxU-TIT0otdUjvcSPqcuYnNFluqTJVHRoEp64TEFQ&typo=1>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 10:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
Nick,
The toy seems to me to illustrate that one variable can be causally related to
another (selected) and correlated to a third which is not causally connected to
the third.
Or something like that. Am I close?
Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:04 PM <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
Hi, Eric,
Nobody should treat my thoughts concerning epiphenomena, intension, extension,
etc. as anything more than vaguely informed explorations. But you know that.
I have struggled for years to understand what my colleagues mean by these terms
and they constantly necker-cube for me, so to the extent that I cannot usually
be relied to know what I am talking about, this is a particularly dangerous
area for me. In particular, I don’t think Sober uses the term,
“epiphenomenon”, in his book, so I would not like to have my understanding of
the term scraped off on him. Calling it the device (see attachment) the Sober
Epiphenomenator is probably all on me.
My colleagues have warned me away from poking at this dungheap, but I am
fascinated by it. It just seems to me that underlying all this mess is a
pretty simple idea, and I would like to clear it up, if only for myself. And
it further seems to me that the Sober device, in its childlike simplity, might
be a good place to start.
I look forward to considering your economic example to see if it fits the
template, if there is a template.
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,PonvMB4fyRuVaaC2-W3oNqsyfAjTDa4rmfxhitGmQxJ-XHhde5J0t-oy1qTjj4FzZ-MNWu6TyVI6VMj6oS1bhnLzpPm5qT7evjTEDNDqYStS6PyAt-Qjm7s-WQ,,&typo=1>
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From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > On
Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 9:30 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!"
It is so interesting that, just as in the earlier discussions of emergence and
probably others, Nick uses the word “epiphenomenal” in ways it would never
occur to me to use it, and as far as I can tell quite exclusive of the only way
it did ever occur to me to use it. I guess DS Wilson (or Elliot Sober?) uses
it the same way as Nick is using it, and I never looked up what was the
canonical usage.
But anyway…
I had always used the term in reference to neoclassical economics (NE) and its
treatment of preferences and institutions. I had always said that NE treated
institutions as epiphenomena of preferences. By which I mean the following:
1. Even economists can’t simply pretend institutions don’t exist.
2. However, Arrow, Debreu, and McKenzie proved lovely existence theorems for
optimal allocations from the competition of individual preferences, and the
economists really really insist on remaining in the Garden of Eden of those
existence proofs.
What to do?
3. Acknowledge that all these names and descriptions of institutions do really
point at things-in-the-world, but declare that economically those things don’t
actually do any work or mean anything. They are like constellations in the
sky; patterns that can be seen from certain angles, as one looks at the
_actual_ basis for economic behavior, which is individual preferences.
That was what I had thought was captured in the characterization
“epiphenomenal”. But clearly I am using it as something of a gesture-word, and
not something for which I am building a strict formal logic. It is more an
attempt to explain the patterns of choices and work by a group of people, and
to impute a state of mind to them to explain those choices.
The alternative to institutions as “epiphenomena” of preferences would be
institutions that not only exist as patterns to be named, but as real things in
the world that do essential work in determining what happens. They govern what
actions are available to us, what knowledge we have to act on, what power or
authority or roles, and on and on. They define signaling systems (monetary
units and physical monies, ownership claims, etc.) and provide the channels on
which the signals are transmitted (contract law, taxation, etc.), and thus are
the framework to operationally coordinate pretty-much everything we think of as
constituting economic life. Without them we would not have raw, competing
complete preferences; we would largely cease to exist as economic agents.
The usage isn’t entirely unlike Nick’s semiotic/intensional-extensional
contrasts, but it seems to differ in the sense that, when I say the NE guys
treat institutions as epiphenomena of preferences, the work that they want done
would be the same whether done by preferences or by institutions. So if they
were to think of institutions as mattering, those would be contributing part of
the mechanics of choice then not carried by preferences, whereas if they are
epiphenomena they are like a kind of transparent window that preferences can be
seen through, while the preferences carry all the weight. Kind of like the
bulk magnetization in a ferromagnet is not a “different” thing that
“supervenes” on all the microscopic magnetic moments and forces them into
coordination: rather the bulk magnetization is nothing more than a summary
statistic for the microscopic magnetizations, and really and truly _nothing_
more or less than the aggregate of them, and hence an epiphenomenon of
them-all-taken-together. In contrast, all of Nick’s epiphenomena are actual,
independent, real properties, and the discussion then branches off in a
different direction of who or what does or doesn’t consider them consequential.
That to me seems more of a contrast of salient vs. ancillary actual
properties, rather than fundamental versus epi or purely apparitional phenomena.
But who knows. I guess it depends on what problem you want to solve, what
count as useful categorizations.
Eric
On Aug 16, 2020, at 6:40 AM, <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:
The quote in the subject line was (is?) a slogan that Massachusetts egg farmers
offered in Massachusetts shoppers trying to get them to buy their eggs. It came
with a ditty which, if you call me up, I will happily sing for you. The back
story is that the factory egg producers in neighboring NY used chickens that
produced white eggs. Like as not, if you were eating a white egg in MA you
were eating an egg that had been shipped in from NY, hence longer in transit.
So, if the campaign were successful, shoppers would seek out brown eggs because
of their color. Brownness in eggs would be their cue for purchase. If the
campaign worked, the freshness would become epiphenonmenal with respect to
their selection criteria. From the point of view of Massachusetts
egg-producers, the brownness of the eggs was epiphenomenal. All they cared
about is whether the eggs sold in MA were from MA This would of course break
down if NY farmers started using chickens that laid brown eggs or Massachusetts
farmers started storing eggs before shipping them.
At Friday’s meeting, my mentors urged me to get off the “epiphenomenon” kick.
I suppose I could instead use the language of semeiotics. [Pause for moaning
in the distance.] In this case we could say that the producers were trying to
make brownness a sign of value in eggs. This works for two quite distinct
reasons: it works for the consumer because the brown is a sign of local and
local is a sign of fresh; it works for the producers because brown is a sign of
eggs that come from their farms.
Instead of semiotic language, we could use the language of intension and
extension. [More anguished groans] The marketing campaign works because
although the intensions of the choices of the two agents are different, these
intensions are both part of the extension of brown eggs in Massachusetts.
Note also that the slogan is an example of powers and perils of abduction. The
sloganeer first abduces that brown eggs are local and from that category (local
eggs) deduces that the eggs are fresh. The two steps in the
abduction/deduction process are
These eggs are brown; local eggs are brown; these eggs are local;
Local eggs are fresh; these [brown] eggs are local; these [brown] eggs are
fresh.
The point (to me) is that there is a very simple thread underlying all of these
ways of talking about natural selection phenomena. Could all this baroque
verbiage be reduced to a simple formula?
Years ago I wrote a
<https://www.researchgate.net/publication/239787151_A_system_for_describing_bird_song_units>
paper that reduced the terminology of bird song down to three operations and
5 levels of organization. In short, the paper showed that while scientists
had been using several dozen terms, they had, along, only been talking about
three different sorts of thing. That is the sort of reduction I would like to
do on all this talk of epiphenomena, intension, extension, function, purpose,
cue, side-effect, spandrel, exaptation, blah, blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah.
Thanks for allowing me to think in your space and on your time.
Nick
Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
<mailto:[email protected]> [email protected]
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