I doubt this will shed any light on the etymological question but this is a Country classic that is, or was, heard from the Central Valley of California to the Hollers of West Virginia to the honky tonks of Texas:
https://youtu.be/4N3iVHxP8FQ --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Sep 7, 2020, 5:19 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > Sorry, Eric, > > > > Dumb error on my part. I didn’t look at the link. > > > > That alternative explanation for “redneck” looks really good; I had never > heard of it. Of course, the one may be a reference to the other. But my > interpretation smacks of Northeastern snootiness, so I suspect the bandana > explanation is correct. > > > > Thanks for persisting. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith > *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 4:34 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening > > > > So now I am confused, Nick. > > > > I had always assumed just what you say, that it referred in particular to > farmers, who out in fields for endless days, bent over ploughs and such, > get sunburned. > > > > It was the guy who goes by Beau of the Fifth Column who recited that > little thing about the West Virginia Miner Revolt as the origin of the term > as a meme. Then that museum also claimed it. > > > > So, understood that it is normally used as a classist designation now. > But from a philological perspective, I am now curious how it became a thing. > > > > There is a different post on what this whole thing is that got distilled > in the RNC convention. I think it is about what people become under a lust > for power. But to make that argument requires time I cannot permit for the > time being. Of course everything else in life gets entrained once > something like this is going on, so I am accepting making an > oversimplification to try to get at the thing driving the train. > > > > Who wants power, why they want it, whether they are legitimate in wanting > it, and the whole question of how the legitimacy of an aim is related to > the effect on the human character, what it means to lust for something, and > why that is a term of opprobrium in careful society, and in particular what > lust becomes when it is for power. > > > > But as I said, I can’t. Besides, just my attempt to make sense of a thing > that won’t yield to sense. Maybe all empty. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > On Sep 7, 2020, at 6:18 PM, <[email protected]> < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi EricS, > > > > It’s a classist designation, that refers (I suppose) to white people who > make their living working out of doors. I suppose it to arise from the > fact that many of the original settlers of the south were of Scottish / > Irish descent, and so ill prepared for bright and high southern sun. > > > > It’s hard to talk about evil without participating in some of it. If we > are to defeat trump (and more importantly, the Trumpism that will endure > after we defeat him) we are going to have to talk about this stuff. Own > up. > > > > Anyway, I’ve probably done enough damage for one weekend. > > > > Good to hear from you, > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,VNlIV0H6_ijgBZ50QvMRueLCKENvHgY-HkEk3P2QMOdrw-ZmGEGqCb1X_9VCsN-XDrLU6-1tssKR8B-yOrCW6hgbRckkq0m6lL4_6tNjKLs2&typo=1> > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith > *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 3:39 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening > > > > It’s interesting you should have ended your email with that term, Nick. > > > > I just (in a different medium) learned the meaning of it a few weeks ago. > But a more complete source is > > > https://www.yesmagazine.org/economy/2015/05/20/is-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.yesmagazine.org%2feconomy%2f2015%2f05%2f20%2fis-west-virginia-s-coal-history-a-goldmine-mine-wars%2f&c=E,1,7FS7EZ5-iRQAb7nQ6yGMY9-ZUPC4WLHj1dIbiX3rQ6iq_GPYOPd_BQ6oEJvs6-1wnRvZDtLzEmQB3mqfq3amHJSGykLbpWFkkuRT5RWl3qKx8U30QwjGnq91FtU,&typo=1> > > > > It complicates the sense of what you should be concerned about responding > to. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > On Sep 7, 2020, at 4:43 PM, <[email protected]> < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Eric (in your capacity as the one who inspired me to write) and others, > > > > You can write about “Nick” just so long as you are writing about the > Transcendental Nick, not the actual one. Is that clear? Glen, and I are > having a discussion on this very point, off line. Just who is it that we > are writing to when we write to a list? > > > > Look, everything you say is true about elephants. And you are right, I > don’t get to declaim that there are no elephants, as long a single person > is behaving as if he sees one. But remember I was writing about Trump and > trying to get my head around somebody who forgives Trump for being a liar > by asserting that “He tells it like it is!” What could that possibly mean? > > > > > When Trump stands by a Vietnam-era soldier’s grave, in the presence of > that soldier’s father, and says, “I don’t get it; what did they get out of > it?” something in me responds, that I have a hard time talking about. I > cannot imagine sending my grandchildren to war, particularly not any of the > wars we have fought in my lifetime. So, odious as Trump’s expression was, > in the context in which it occurred, it speaks for a part of me. Trump > tells the truth about these nether impulses that some of us harbor. He > speaks truthfully of my inner redneck. He tells it like it is. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,Qy8NYHw061lsW96cG_pMF1nrRGKfNU6lLS-YkDnv6LBuHoM1qEZrSDVqTemL77bGYRCnOlkuVM2kIqGO_j48fBCmiBebqUJSM-Q7fIFH&typo=1> > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles > *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2020 12:30 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening > > > > "The truth he tells is that he sees elephants. There are no elephants. > But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto > death of pretending that they don’t see them. " > > > > Nope, nope, nope. Anyone else on this list gets to say that, and maybe I > would even agree with it coming from anyone else, but Nick Thompson does > not get to say that. Nick must concede that there is *something* those > people are responding to, and does *not *get to assert "there are no > elephants." Nick must concede, both as a New Realist and as the type of New > England Liberal he strives to be, that there is a point of view from which > there *are *elephants in the room, and that he has some obligation to > meet the people at the place where that view is, especially if he wants to > try to talk those people into moving somewhere else. And he can't do that > while also making a blanket declaration of the non-existence of the > elephants. > > > > Nick could be fully consistent with what I have said above while *also > *believing > that the elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) some > sort of unstable equilibrium, and that those people would change when > exposed to additional aspects of the world -- whereas Nick's own > non-elephant-seeing point of view is (developmentally speaking) a much more > stable equilibrium, robust to the effects of wider-world exposure.* The > problem comes when Nick wants to assert that in a mythic future, when the > dust of investigation settles, and everyone has experienced all there is to > experience about the world, the elephant-seeing view will be gone, and only > the non-elephant-seeing view will remain. (With that being what we are > shaking our stick at with claims regarding "truth" and "real".) But *if* > psychology > works like the other sciences, that is not what will happen. Rather, in > that mythic future, we will have mapped out the conditions under which > elephant-seeing occurs and the situations in which it does not.** This is > just as the chemist maps out situations in which a given chemical reaction > occurs and situations in which it does not, and just as a mathematician > maps out the postulates combinations that lead to certain mathematical > phenomena. In the end, when the dust of investigation settles, we will > understand the conditions under which elephant-seeing occurs and the > situations under which it does not. And when we find ourselves in a world > that meets elephant-seeing conditions (among the concaphone of conditions > present at any given time), we must admit that there is a place to stand > from which elephants will be seen! > > > > > > > > * That is, of course, an empirical assertion, and as Nick tries to share > aspects of the world with them, those other people will no doubt try to > share with him, and the robustness of both sides will be tested. > > > > ** I hope it is clear that "situation" is being used in the broadest sense > of the word, to include the developmental history of those involved, among > other factors. > > > > P.S. I know Nick doesn't like it when messages over the FRIAM list get > overly personal, but I hope you will all indulge me on occasion, as the > issues seem pertinent to several past and present discussions on the list. > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 1:25 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > Eric, > > > > The truth he tells is that he sees elephants. There are no elephants. > But there are a lot of people who see elephants, and they are weary unto > death of pretending that they don’t see them. When Trump speaks, they get > to say, “Oh, you see elephants, too! I am not the only one!” > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,kj5GsuskdtGLYJiG_gypTrmzfYqCM29zGj49rPdfjZsjAz05Bmsi12AZVMoGKKSYeghTh-lovniZfaK8w10Lk8u5naLTxn9KQcj38OkgXN9PbgRHQc_Xm00-&typo=1> > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles > *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 11:01 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] OFFLINE:Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening > > > > "Perhaps I should have said, early on, “Look, I’m sorry, I keep seeing > you as Uncle Remus. I am sure, as I get to know you better, I will get > over it. Please be patient with me, and please call me out whenever you > feel confined by it. ” > > > > A Liberalism that does not free me is not worth the name." > > > > It will probably not surprise you to know that I find this narration > baffling. You definitely *could* say that to him, at any time. There is > nothing "liberal" about feeling trapped to not discuss something like that. > If you felt trapped for a bit, not saying anything seems wise. However, at > some point, you just say it, or give up on the idea that you actually have > a problem with it. Personally, I'd stay away from an Uncle Remus reference, > but the whole point here is that the two of you are old, so it might make > sense in your world. At any rate, the worst case result will be that you > have been honest with him, and he never spoke to you again. Which is, IMHO, > a better outcome than your not being honest with him, and he never spoke to > you again, which seems to be where you are now. Sometimes, certainly not > always, but sometimes, when I make moves like that in a conversation, you > later express admiration and/or envy. > > > > I think this relates to the larger question of what some people see in > Trump. They see him as constantly pointing out what they (his fans) see as > the "elephant in the room." Sure, he says a boat load of other things, and > lots of those things are not true, but those aren't the important things. > "Why do we want all these people from shithole countries coming here?" is a > great example of a perceived elephant. "There are good people on both > sides" is another, as is the recent dust-up about "anti-racist" workshops. > When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away 1) See I > was right not to risk saying that myself, because my supposedly friendly, > supposedly open-minded neighbors would have attacked me just for saying it, > and maybe even tried to get me fired, because apparently they think my kids > should go hungry if I think something they don't like. 2) Thank God > *someone *had the guts to ask the question! 3) What kind of crazy country > do these libs want to turn us into, with all these elephants wandering all > around the room, and it's not even enough to not say anything, because now > you gotta be worried about getting fired if they think you might even have > looked at one? 4) If I could be me, but also have the guts to talk about > the elephants, I would be A Better Person. He talks about the elephants, so > he is A Better Person. > > > > Did that comparison hold together? It felt like it did. > > > > > > > > > > P.S. Add on top of that that a huge chunk of the "lies" are puffery, which > amounts to telling his supporters that it is ok to feel good about > themselves and good about their country. This started in earnest with the > claims about inauguration attendance and continues, for example, with any > suggestion that we might be doing anything half-decent with our Covid > response. When Trump gets hammered for saying such things, they take away > 1) I guess the libs really do want us to feel bad about our country. 2) > They really think it would be horrible if I felt good about myself for even > a minute. 3) They are ok judging me when they know nothing about me. > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > My solution is to elect Biden and to use Trump as an example of the kind > of person to never elect again. But that's just me. > > Sounds like a partial lobotomy. I'm game for this... but not sure it is > more than "a good start", which of course is, in fact, a good start. > > > > > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > > > On Sat, Sep 5, 2020, 8:15 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Yes, you could say that government in general and especially lawmakers > > are our superego. The best common word synonym for superego is > > conscience. Since a lot of people have lacunae of their own superego > > we need laws and law enforcers. > > So right now we are in the midst of a collective id/ego/superego that is > experiencing a dissociative episode, both governmental and social? > > to the extent the analogy holds, what is an exit/recovery strategy? > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,n2I7VDLx_BEdLgOmrCiq22m5r86f_QWDRP7l5xgh_gcBbcClUKAyXBMJZxvm8qVtVQb5taEj-f0XlQiE_1x34-H5yKhHtkHt-aDVVus_dw,,&typo=1> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,La5m9ezFJSviWorlKzphxIIn2HHjGWCYrJ7va4U_IUKee_TQPwOYFge7-jl30flZpJxeM4ZsIPAYgVjomGOhMaZyxlaOY22F1vYmx7gp&typo=1> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,BMr_m6-WgrTADOiWaJmU2yqkVUIsru59x_G9LmEfM0P07cYd9ZVOK5lFdo0rkUfFnkWbp-oBrC0SrzzTln55Hd8qZXvbO3yCsNvXuQxhi-eGXpt2&typo=1> > > > > - 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