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On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:27 PM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Naaaa. I think you have a severely biased understanding of > libertarianism. To be fair, it's not your fault. A core principle of > libertarianism is to argue *for* a state when a state is *necessary*. This > is why they're not anarchists. Any reasonable libertarian will willingly > argue, and accept if argued well enough, the need for state run programs, > including pro-social ones like education and health care. > > > > The trick is you have to separate the actual libertarians from the ones > who *call* themselves "libertarians". And then you have to argue patiently, > with data, over and over again, until they finally see the need for the > state in that context. It's exhausting and I don't blame you if you usually > give up before reaching that point. > > [email protected] wrote: > >> Well, except the last part. In the L. O., don't we have to fling all > the saved money out of the top of the Washington Moneyment and watch all > the people kill each other groveling for it? > > Nick - > > You have well characterized a common (and well earned) caricature of > (L)ibertarianism with the feature that watching the "sheeple" tear one > another part in their ignorant greed and fear is a key feature of their > brand. The Trumpist badge-of-honor to "own the Libs" is an even uglier > variation. Hillary's gaffe that exposed the "despicablizing" of anyone > who would support Trump (or who would not support her?) is yet another > variation. > > Glen - > > I acknowledge your distinction between Libertarian(tm)s and the more > pure-to-conception version (though I don't know any of the latter except > from "just-so" anecdotes told mostly by the former who don't realize how > transparent they are). I'm also reminded of the They Might Be Giants > verse in a song: "I know politics bore you, you and your racist > friend"... it takes on more significance every time I try to speak in > depth with a crypto-racist (or crypto-classist, or crypto- anythingist) > who uses one thing to obscure another thing that prevents/excusing them > from engaging in a meaningful/thoughtful conversation/thoughts. Maybe, > as you say, it just takes more patience and data, even with them? > > All - > > I've become a fan of Jim Scott's view of things as described in his "The > Art of not being Governed" which I would say distinguishes itself from > Anarchism in the sense of simply doing what it takes to not (need to) be > (G)overned (thus "Art" vs "Trick" in the title). SteveG and I have > talked of late around the dual-use of the term; "govern" and it's cousin > "regulate" in the domains of systems (complex, Complex, and nominally > neither) vs in politics and statecraft. The former being a "system" for > seeking the right/opportunity/power to do the latter, and the latter > being (on a good day) the role of designing/maintaining governance > systems which allow/guide/constrain human systems (socioeconomic) to > operate efficiently and humanely (according to some set of values of > what is humane and what features are to be measured and optimized?). > > Many - > > This "August Body" is one of the few places where I find enough richness > and nuance FOR these discussions to unfold. I don't want to be (too > much) like Nick wishing "we" were different (I'm alluding to his > occasional Jonesing on being able to distill these threads into proper > scientific papers), but I often feel that we bring up (potentially) rich > topics and then put them to away before we've really put them through > their full paces. I am guilty, of course, of both sins of (c)ommission > in my own tangenting (never really feels that to me when I do it, but > recognize how it must when it is pointed out... "dookey-in-the-fan" > style) and witholding (half my missives don't even get saved in a > "drafts" folder) and perhaps my lack of focus leading to a well (enough) > crafted argument to make it past my own Censor Homonculus and obviously > relevant in it's tangential content/style to make it past everyone > else's TLDR censors. (TTDR, more to the point?) > > Few - > > I can't think of a thing I can say here, believing that only a few would > care... but maybe those reading this got past the TL/TT DR censors are > the canonical "Few"... and some of you may just be reading out of morbid > fascination with "where is THIS tangent going?". Perhaps the thing I > am struggling with is that we seem to be coming out of the other end of > a "Long Dark Teatime of the Soul" (nod to Douglas Adams) with Trump > about to be frog-marched out of the Whitehouse and as we lick (or > staunch or splint or debrade or detox) our wounds and try to stand up > and wobble forward with conviction, away from the > take-a-dump-with-trump-in-the-dumpster fire that was the last 4+ ( start > counting with Trump's primary win) years, toward *what*? Does a > Biden-Harris/Democrat term give us the opening to take stock and make > some hay while the sun is shining? Or are our politicians (and selves) > stuck in an obstructionist contrarianism that only allows us to do > (lame) preventative and remedial things while we hold our breath waiting > for the "other shoe to fall"? I recently heard a commentator (late > night comedian) make the very apt point that Trump started a grievance > campaign against himself when he *won* (electoral college) in 2016, so > whatever he does "next" will be nothing more than a continuation of > that. I felt that the Republican controlled congress (esp. Senate) has > been unable to do anything *but* obstruction in many terms now. Maybe, > in the sense of regulatory feedback, that is the most they *can* do > right now? Ride the brakes, drag the feet, unfurl the kite tail a > little longer? Those *can* be powerfully stabilizing forces on the > edge of chaos. > > Ramble, > > - Steve > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
