Creatively undermining an idea is different from just saying it is wrong. On the other hand, it can be difficult to discriminate an off-the-shelf argument from a bespoke argument. Picking apart dozens of details for a person barking up the wrong tree can be pointless as well.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 8:49 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Great Communicator or NLP unto TDS Pfffft! Being a contrarian is just being a slavish follower multiplied by minus one. I like you better as a SteelMan. n Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[email protected]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Great Communicator or NLP unto TDS Wow! I don't think I've seen such an aggressive post from Steve before! Well done! Of course, being contrarian, I'll have to take Dave's side on this one. >8^D What do we mean by "narrative" and "persuasion" if *not* confidence building? I thought that I tried to make this assertion in the "truth, reality, & narrative" post: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/truth-reality-amp-narrative-tc7600012.html But re-reading it shows that if that was my intention, I'm an idiot and failed utterly. The only purpose, EVER, to story telling is to *trick* the audience into believing something they wouldn't ordinarily believe ... to *pull* them along with your rhetoric. This is why we're so susceptible to con-men like Trump (and Scott Adams). It's also why Neil deGrasse Tyson is so popular! ... and why actual engineers deliver such horrible presentations ... and why every engineer *hates* the marketing department. Of course, it's plausible to distinguish between communication and story-telling. I do it all the time when I tell people how much I hate poetry. Poetry is anti-communication, but great story-telling. It relies heavily on the audience to collapse the poetic ambiguity down onto their own preferred meaning. And this is exactly what Trump does. Trump is a 1st class poet, never saying anything with any concreteness, which is why people call him a mobster and con-man. Allowing the audience to collapse whatever nonsense he said to their own meaning. This is poetry. So, where we stand on Trump as a Great Communicator hinges on whether we think poetry is communication or not! Ha! QED! >8^D On 1/11/21 7:03 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > Scott Adams might have been speaking ironically? I don't have his original > text. > > "an effective persuader in a world where facts don't matter" does not "a > great communicator" make... it makes something rather different... > > <TR;dbttR> > > Being able to read a room (or individual), identify their greed and > fear triggers, and then play them deftly... that is a manipulative con man, > not a communicator. One who can play 74M people and incite a violent attack > by many thousands of them on the seat of our government (insurrection) might > have cult-leader qualities, but I'd not call them a "great communicator", I'd > call it something else entirely. > > It isn't clear that what our "glorious leader" has done with the rest of the > world leaders over the last 4 years qualifies as "great communication" > either, though maybe he did effectively communicate *his* lack of respect for > former allies and *his* authoritarian envy for the "success" of the likes of > Putin, Erdoğan, Bolsonaro, Duterte, bin Salman, maybe even Kim Jong Un? > > To be clear, I don't think much about how many of Trump's followers are > "deplorables" because I think of most of them as simply deluded and in his > thrall, naturally the deplorable among them are merely the "ragged edged > poison tip" of his spear. > > I'd be interested to hear what you believe Trump has been communicating to > his supporters, his non-supporters, our (former) allies around the world, and > our (former) all this time? And is what he's been communicating been honest > in fact and in heart? > >> DaveW did not claim Trump was a great communicator — he did (attempt to) >> cite Scott Adams' book, /Win Bigly,/ where Adams, who considers himself a >> great communicator, argued that Trump was the same and that was why he was >> going to win the election against Hillary — which he did. >> >> Steve adds: /"I believe it is duplicitous and divisive to claim he is >> "a great communicator" That implies both depth and breadth, that he >> is listening to a broad swath of the country and he is speaking to a >> broad swath."/ >> >> Adams argues, and I completely agree, that this is exactly what Trump did in >> 2016, does today, and will continue to do in the future. A broad enough >> swath to win in 2016 and attract 40 million votes in 2020. >> >> I said in 2016 (when I was also predicting Trump's win) that it was a huge >> mistake for Democrats and the Media then, to focus on the 1-10 percent of >> Trump supporters who were certifiably wacko and card carrying members of the >> "Basket of Deplorables," and pretending the 90-99% did not exist and did not >> have legitimate and perhaps even reasonable reasons for supporting someone — >> for policy and philosophical reasons — that they found to be despicable as a >> person. >> >> In this post, I believe SteveS is perpetuating that mistake. >> >> While ranting, may I remark that the social media and tech platforms >> essentially removed themselves from rule 230 protection (when it gets to the >> courts) by banning Trump and Parler. Modifying 230 is a bipartisan >> objective, but it will be real interesting to watch the rhetorical >> contortions the Dems will have to perform when considering actual >> legislation. >> >> davew >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 10, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Steve Smith wrote: >> > I didn't take the bait on Friday's vFriam when DaveW (as I >> > remember) claimed that Donald J Trump was "a great communicator". >> > (same as Reagan was credited by his fans and perhaps more >> > reluctantly his >> > detractors?) >> > >> > I suppose Trump is very effective at one mode of transmission of >> > his ugliest sentiments, which I find to be at best a very >> > degenerate form of CO mmunication. >> > >> > Whatever skills he has for "reading a crowd" and reflecting back >> > that which serves his purposes feels more like Neurolinguistic >> > Programming >> > (NLP) than "communication". >> > >> > I believe it is duplicitous and divisive to claim he is "a great >> > communicator" That implies both depth and breadth, that he is >> > listening to a broad swath of the country and he is speaking to a broad >> > swath. >> > Perhaps by a twist of interpretation, you *can* claim that he has >> > his finger on the pulse of those he whips into a seditious and >> > insurrectional frenzy as well as those he cannot so instead whips >> > into what has been called "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (TDS). His >> > apparent ability to instigate TDS in virtually everyone (type A or >> > type B) is somewhat unique... though authoritarian figures around >> > the world have done it for millennia? >> > >> > One (DaveW?) could also argue his sublime ability to give clear >> > direction/orders to his underlings (e.g. Michael Cohen, et al) >> > without ever actually saying anything indictable. This is the >> > stuff of Crime bosses, right? Very effective communicators within >> > a very narrow (and useful to them) context. >> > >> > DaveW's assertion on Friday provided me the perspective and >> > motivation to look a little deeper into the question of just what >> > makes Trump's style of communication so dangerous. The previous >> > post with the Politico article about Sedition vs Insurrection came >> > to me from that unconsciously I think. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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