I think this is right, Nick, and think I have seen lawyers comment just to this effect either in print or on video.
One need not have committed a criminal offense to be held to have committed a “high crime”. Eric > On Jan 19, 2021, at 1:46 PM, <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think of "high" crimes and misdemeanors as those that only a person of > lofty office can commit. So violation of an oath of "high" office is a High > Crime. I don't know if that interpretation has any basis in history. But > the plain text of the constitution seems to suggest it: "...bribery and OTHER > high crimes and misdemeanors..." So, I see the impeachment passage in the > constitution as setting out vulnerabilities of high office in addition to > those that ordinary citizens endure. > > n > > Nick Thompson > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,oUlafNnFpVFIvOa1OXXvEVgBrc1U87aoeYYfNUIEiVN8NAwu-dBmw7m2XB_ZmAwcycgiJXIObWFz1EXn0JhOVKxTd7w0O36AaasUAIPIeVJVlw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of Marcus Daniels > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 12:09 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] incitement > > It would certainly hit Benjamin Franklin's assertion that impeachment was for > those times when the Executive "rendered himself obnoxious" or Hamilton's > "those offences which proceed from the misconduct of men, or in other words, > from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which > may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly > to injuries done immediately to the society itself." > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On > Behalf Of u?l? ??? > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:58 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] incitement > > I suppose all 3 positions (Marcus, Eric, and Nick) argue that impeachment > isn't really a legal proceeding, but a democratic one ... representative > democracy, however far removed. I've often argued that it's reasonable that > lawyers be elected to Congress. The purpose of Congress is argumentation. And > lawyers are the closest we have to professional arguers. But, I suppose I'm > changing my mind about that. Congress might be legislative, but it's not > about arguing (at least not anymore). Their "debates" seem mostly > granstanding. And the "deals" that turn into legislation are done more by > what looks like beating the pavement ... lots of "arguing" in semi-private, I > guess. But not in the sense of rational debate and consideration of > consequences. That all happens in the courts. > > So we go back to populism. It strikes me as a populist sentiment that Trump > is guilty of incitement (and populist sentiment that he's an "outsider" > "fighting the deep state"). And I'm left with the question: What's the > difference between democracy and populism? Yeah, I know populism is cartooned > as requiring a belief in the "corrupt elite". But is democracy really only a > well-formed populism? > > If it's not the *letter* of some law that convicts or acquits Trump, then > what method should be used? "My noisiest constituents want me to > [convict|acquit]"? > > On 1/19/21 8:29 AM, [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: > > I am concerned that the present article of impeachment relies on the > > concept of incitement, which has, I am told, a very specific and narrow > > definition in federal law. Now I recognize that violation of federal law > > is not required for impeachment. However, I would hope that, just to be > > sure, we would add the charges of “reckless disregard” during the Ellipse > > speech and "dereliction of duty to protect” during the later stages of the > > riot itself. Neither charge requires the establishment of criminal intent. > > It is as if he drove down a crowded walking street at high speed and then > > failed to stop to give aid when he heard a bunch of thumps on his fenders. > > Sure he was late for a dentist appointment; what difference does that make? > > On 1/19/21 8:21 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: > > That does raise a certain question of law, however (not goal, just method > > and framing). If you don’t plan ahead for destruction because you are > > unconcerned whether actions you take might cause it, it seems that > > shouldn’t be _less_ of a wrongdoing than having incited intentionally. > > Since the Richie Ramirez thing appears to be back in the pop consciousness > > just now (I remember the evening news cycle when I was a boy and that was > > all going down), we can probably say there is precedent that sociopaths > > don’t get indemnity. > > > >> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Marcus Daniels <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> That his lack of caution arises from stupidity as much as it does from > >> malice shouldn't give him any relief. > > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,V_FE0Tqz5CbUJtjp5VMrgFhTBitkGPyRq5JQXu8xSsOC-FvkGYSsiizB0pxUntneFI1-P3DwKNsXjdDaZapshm8Bv5IgFTZOI_SCdQO2&typo=1> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-5hZzPs1Cyw8k9bdf55uuhFCgRtwXGJqW4rQ7kyunnK0zyb2xerTkosgLIz4VTu6oKJCD18TFHwDaO9TuCVDSylYJ7JT2KPZDb2wslGpLPAlrITs2VPUL6zeVg,,&typo=1> > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,le2NkP6jj-wXiYPYITsiHEZ_AmSmspoZOIyXiGoHgjDiuCL1HaOETxpe_MZMWKlYTYhCWk4Epd36dFcelFZnc7eUTtbB4UhYA8AAa4eVBbkBa8UhDvvzk5Xw3w,,&typo=1> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,tBv8y_SMxqQMHRqLeFzuFXtcHPbdYlCkcdd8a5pRCAEw3nTy9G_CPZZg_aQBWBtVsqDm5r2pf6ENfN5-H2FJiYlBmKpeX4QSlEq7DB081BloNNlo&typo=1>- > .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,JDa24YsuxsHcx6sYSIFMCjGZfbf1tpZvIZ6HLuGrYGLVc-im2NFSGFEFI_WKhnKqtCWDMwhR2hB7_-o11KrsFOmWg2i4Hnj9ZvZkMWQ8xz8autDX_zElwFQZ&typo=1 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,JDa24YsuxsHcx6sYSIFMCjGZfbf1tpZvIZ6HLuGrYGLVc-im2NFSGFEFI_WKhnKqtCWDMwhR2hB7_-o11KrsFOmWg2i4Hnj9ZvZkMWQ8xz8autDX_zElwFQZ&typo=1> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XxItpimpSkJAjegp4TpRpTxxK4eKQGW7iyC3d-8STePrJKUdRUlOiqLpsx5bvlW38A7N9E4OJJnr_5BJDS80oUPoWWyrNgTDq1EqEyCsqHJfU4A,&typo=1 > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,XxItpimpSkJAjegp4TpRpTxxK4eKQGW7iyC3d-8STePrJKUdRUlOiqLpsx5bvlW38A7N9E4OJJnr_5BJDS80oUPoWWyrNgTDq1EqEyCsqHJfU4A,&typo=1>
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