Glen - Thanks.... I never encountered the proposal version in the context of Ada directly, but in the general engineering culture.
When I first realized that you were using Strawman in a very different way than I was used to it, I definitely recognized that YOU were not using it in an adversarial way, though I think you were often acknowledging or proposing that others were. I think there is a nuance to the "Strawman Proposal" that differs from "Skeleton" in that it is deliberately detuned, possibly deliberately flawed to leave room for others to contribute. The difference perhaps between a pot of water on a fire with a large nail in it and a pot of water on a fire with an onion? The stone/nail becomes a challenge for others to contribute substantially while the onion carries more assumptions that might actually suppress the generous, collective creativity that ensues from the parable. Once I got past the negative/defensive response to the idea that I might be "putting forth a strawman" I benefited quickly from the alternative conception complementing the "proposal" version. And as you suggest, mostly by applying it to my own thinking/ideas and by recognizing (more often) if I might be accidentally strawmanning someone else. Infinite games all, - St3ve On 1/28/21 2:02 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Interesting. Thanks. I used Ada for 5 years contracting (mostly for the Army) > and never once heard any of these terms used that way. And I was part of the > group that pitched new projects to our clients. I'm wondering if it simply > fell out of use or if I was too holed up in my own little world. We did > commonly use the phrases "skeleton" and "fleshing out". > > Also FWIW, the straw man fallacy is not solely an adversarial concept. You > can straw man yourself. You can accidentally straw man someone. There are > 3-way attempts at constructive ... what? ... trialog (?) where each party > straw mans the others position on the way to a common ground. Etc. > > It's unfortunate that we focus on competitive, zero-sum, and adversarial > senses of such things. But that need not be the case. > > > On 1/28/21 12:30 PM, Steve Smith wrote: >> Perhaps no-one cares or shares my confusion with the use >> Strawman/Steelman championed by Glen and adopted by others, however: >> >> consensus development: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_proposal >> >> vs polemical debate: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
