On 4/21/21 10:51 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> That's an excellent point that plays well to Pieter's mention of allowing 
> poor people to access desalinated water, Dave's mention of the myth of the 
> objective, and our discussion of free will. These 
> trajectories-willfull-paths-attractors-whatever need *some* organizing 
> "centroid" or something for them to maintain/persist. That's even if such 
> purity of intention is illusory in some psychological sense, that "centroid", 
> "objective", "targeted state", or whatever it is can be pointed to and 
> studied.
And these collective "aspiroids" are emergent, co-evolve with personal
interests... the stuff of Swarms, no?   A swarm of locusts is not a
giant locust, but it can be said to be "ravenous"?
>
> On 4/21/21 9:10 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>> I went back to reading Ted Chiang at this point:
>>  
>>
>>     And that is an example, I think, of this general idea that the 
>> intentions or the spiritual nature of the practitioner was an essential 
>> element in chemical reactions, that you needed to be pure of heart or you 
>> needed to concentrate really hard in order for the reaction to work. And it 
>> turns out that is not true. Chemical reactions work completely independently 
>> of what the practitioner wants or feels or whether they are virtuous or 
>> malign.
>>
>>
>> Immediately after reading this breaking alert from The Washington Post:
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>         Baltimore plant with contaminated Johnson & Johnson vaccines had 
>> multiple failures, unsanitary conditions, FDA report says 
>> <https://s2.washingtonpost.com/31f97bf/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45/5972cf2a9bbc0f1cdceb5a63/3/13/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45>
>>
>>     Vaccine production at the Emergent BioSolutions plant was shut down 
>> earlier this week after 15 million doses of raw Johnson & Johnson 
>> coronavirus vaccine were contaminated by ingredients from AstraZeneca’s 
>> vaccine.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The chemistry only works if the chemists expend the necessary effort to 
>> making it so.  When they fail, they generally poison people, destroy the 
>> factory, and, in this case, I think they're taking the company down with 
>> them.
>>
>> Chiang's point is entirely theoretical, in practice purity of intention is 
>> absolutely essential.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:16 AM Roger Critchlow <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>>     There was a book review in Science last week, sort of the book that 
>> Google wasn't going to let Timnit Gebru write on their nickel.
>>
>>
>>       AI empires
>>
>>      1. [reviewed by] Michael Spezio
>>
>>     Atlas of AI: Power, Politics, and the Planetary Costs of Artificial 
>> Intelligence /Kate Crawford/ Yale University Press, 2021. 336 pp.
>>
>>     Kate Crawford's new book, /Atlas of AI/, is a sweeping view of 
>> artificial intelligence (AI) that frames the technology as a collection of 
>> empires, decisions, and actions that together are fast eliminating 
>> possibilities of sustainable futures on a global scale. Crawford, a senior 
>> principal researcher at Microsoft's FATE (Fairness, Accountability, 
>> Transparency, and Ethics in AI) group, conceives of AI as a one-word 
>> encapsulation of imperial design, akin to Calder Willingham's invocation of 
>> the word “plastics” in his 1967 screenplay for /The Graduate/ (/1/ 
>> <https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6539/246#ref-1>). AI, machine 
>> learning, and other concepts are here understood as efforts, practices, and 
>> embodied material manipulations of the levers of global power.
>>
>>
>>     -- rec --
>>
>>     On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>>         Well, Chiang was, I think, arguing that there's a reductionism 
>> lurking in the asymmetric *use* of technology. Exploitation of resources by 
>> capitalists is just one form it can take. Reducing progressive ephemerides 
>> to the influence of superheroes or conspiracy theories is another one. 
>> Roko's Basilisk is yet another one.
>>
>>         To gloss all that into an equivalence class of arbitrarily swappable 
>> buzzwords or over-specific irony about the misunderstanding of socialism is 
>> a mistake. Eschatological thinking might not rise to being a first order 
>> trait ... a crisp category of people. But it's a persistent and prominent 
>> pattern.
>>
>>         I really enjoy optimistic narratives like Pieter's. But I can also 
>> appreciate tragic narratives like Merle's. Eric's (and Chiang's) broach of 
>> the emergence of detailed and echatologically ambiguous story-telling out of 
>> the simpler types hits the right vein of ore. We're seeing more of these 
>> ambiguous stories lately ... in spite of the render-farm nonsense Jon 
>> laments.
>>
>>         On 4/20/21 12:54 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>         > Yeah.  I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they 
>> could articulate it.  (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”.  Not some 
>> others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are 
>> immersed)   You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, 
>> exchangeable at the drop of a hat.
>>         >
>>         > There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use 
>> by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that 
>> the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, 
>> than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective 
>> pushback against their expansion into it.  People’s anxiety and bad behavior 
>> is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there 
>> might not be any room in it for them. 
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >> On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels 
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>         >>
>>         >> The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing 
>> since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is 
>> intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified 
>> of socialism. 
>>         >>
>>         >> Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I 
>> turned it on.   Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of 
>> compelling people.   It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people 
>> exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so.
>>         >>
>>         >> -----Original Message-----
>>         >> From: Friam <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
>>         >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM
>>         >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>         >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets)
>>         >>
>>         >> This was a nice read, Glen, thank you.
>>         >>
>>         >>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>         >>>
>>         >>> I should have linked this:
>>         >>>
>>         >>> 
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi 
>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi>
>>         >>> ang-transcript.html
>>         >>>
>>         >>
>>         >> Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me.
>>         >>
>>         >> On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another 
>> factoid.  His comment that superheroes:
>>         >> 1. Are magic == special
>>         >> 2. Preserve the status quo
>>         >>
>>         >> I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the 
>> Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are 
>> considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place 
>> in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because 
>> (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls 
>> (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the 
>> retelling.  The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and 
>> accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more 
>> complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes.  I have come 
>> back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, 
>> whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, 
>> etc.  I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its 
>> dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. 
>>         >>
>>         >> So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia 
>> +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is 
>> dominated by Marvel Comics franchises.  Having had the modern novel, we are 
>> throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping 
>> the magic and preservation of the status quo.  After all, the real heroics 
>> have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in 
>> the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or 
>> overcome, but a persistent force.  (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, 
>> and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). 
>>         >>
>>         >> There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from 
>> perhaps two sources.
>>         >>
>>         >> Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a 
>> talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world 
>> war.  The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently 
>> gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his 
>> way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long 
>> gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather.  From 
>> some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there 
>> was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the 
>> front-and-center nuclear terror.  Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy 
>> Griffith.  In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room 
>> chair in the evening.  In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider 
>> the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened.  That was 
>> also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to 
>> smell food walking into a store
>>         disappeared. 
>>         >>
>>         >> So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because 
>> that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a 
>> much more inclusive fear even than what they state.
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >> I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether 
>> Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to 
>> DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the 
>> common reference as a misunderstanding.
>>         >>
>>         >> Eric
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >>> "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by 
>> laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign 
>> in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social 
>> safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and 
>> cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how 
>> capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going 
>> to use this to increase their profits at our expense?"
>>         >>>
>>         >>> On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
>>         >>>> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red 
>> Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll 
>> still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich 
>> people) when the tech's ready to scale.
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>         >>>>> Again technology to the rescue...   Nanotechnology for 
>> desalinization.   
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>         >>>>> From: Friam <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>>         >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM
>>         >>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>         >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets)
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one.
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation>.
>>         >>>>> 
>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15
>>         >>>>> 
>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w
>>         >>>>> 
>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> And another one:
>>         >>>>> 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian>.
>>         >>>>> 
>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB
>>         >>>>> 
>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T
>>         >>>>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
>>         >>>>>> Another good example is water rights across states given
>>         >>>>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc.
>>         >>>>>> 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia 
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia>
>>         >>>>>> n.com 
>> <http://n.com>%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_
>>         >>>>>> 
>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC
>>         >>>>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1
>>         >>>>>> centers>
>>         >>>>>>
>>         >>>>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be 
>> less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first 
>> discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve?

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