Paraphrasing Larry McMurtry's fur-trapping duo as they are leaving their favorite valley at the end of the season with their pack mules (too lightly) loaded with Beaver Pelts:
"remember when we used to come here 20 years ago, we could trap 100 beaver a day from this valley, now it seems it takes a whole week to take that many! I wonder where they all went?" A friend commented recently that if we had "unlimited" free energy, we would just make our strip mines 10 times as deep and 100 times as wide. I like to consider the Dyson Sphere <http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SETI1.HTM> as an edge/extreme case of what we could/might do to optimize the exploitation of the free energy in our solar system. I particularly like that Dyson conjured it in a thought experiment of one way to search for extra-terrestial (extra-solar) civilizations. If Elon Musk has a skunkworks and nanotech/antimatter project underway it seems conceivable that such a Dyson Sphere could be constructed in a generation or three. And then what? What would we exploit then? Wait for Sol to go supernova and somehow build multiple shells to buffer, absorb, re-emit that energy on a time-scale more suitable to carbon-based life? Or become postCarbon, not just postHuman? On 4/24/21 10:04 AM, cody dooderson wrote: > "the hover crafts are cool, but the air is so putrid" -Murder Mike > from Run the Jewels. > > As the saying goes "with great power comes great responsibility". I > don't think anyone could argue that our technologies don't have a dark > destructive side. I find it hard to think of any technology that > doesn't cause some harmful side effect when it becomes "commercially > viable". For instance antibiotics are amazing, until you inadvertantly > make multi resistant staph. Nuclear power can power all of the cities, > and also destroy them. Etc... > > I mostly agree with technophobics about using just enough of the > right technology, but no more. > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:06 AM Pieter Steenekamp > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I understand the concerns of the supporters of Brightgreenlies but > I don't necessarily agree with their solutions. > > Humanity has causes and is still causing huge destruction to other > life on Mother Earth. It is good to have activists for a Greener > future. I support seeking a win-win solution for all of us, from > microbes to all multicellular species, including humans. > > On a personal level it's not always easy. For example, I'm morally > against eating meat. I just consider it wrong to raise animals in > factories where they don't seem to enjoy any happiness and then to > kill them to eat them. But when I was young I didn't think about > it and became a good carnivore. I was raised on a farm where we > had meat on the table for three meals every day. It's very > difficult for me now in my old age to be a vegetarian without > cheating. My friends call me an undercover vegetarian. > > For me the solutions are based on seeking ways to achieve both > emotional and material abundance and restoring natural eco > systems. The first place in this case is not to compromise. IMO > there are plenty reasons for optimism that: > a) With microble gene editing we can feed the world from relative > very small ponds, > b) have can have abundant cheap, clean and safe nuclear energy, > c) use this desalinate water to have abundant fresh water, > d) develop carbon based materials to make exotic stuff from > extracting carbon from the atmosphere and > e) restore the natural eco systems on earth > and so on and so on. My argument is to embrace technology for > solutions. > > My optimism could prove false, I'm not predicting the future, but > I really don't think there is a viable option to keep 7 billion > humans from starvation and saving the environment without turning > to technology. We have grown to 7 billion in non sustainable and > harmful to the ecology ways. Turning to non-technological > sustainable ways will just not support 7 billion people on earth. > But, I might be wrong, so my view is that provided that it can > support the current world population, I will be very happy to live > in a perma-culture based sustainable world. I can see that the > quality of life could be much higher on average for all than what > it is now. > > If we are doomed we are doomed, but I'd like to be part of the > movement that actively seeks and supports solutions for a better > future for all Life on Mother Earth. > > > On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 at 22:14, Marcus Daniels <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > As far as meat eating goes, three solutions come to mind 1) > make it too expensive, 2) find treatments that reprogram the > appetite, and 3) come up with substitutes, e.g. impossible > burger. Catastrophes would help with #1. They will surely > come. The general issue with hedonism can probably be > addressed by #2 (e.g. pharmaceuticals). > > Gosh, people didn’t like masks, wait until you take their > potato chips and porn away. It just isn’t going to happen > that people decide to stop going to work and tend to their > organic garden instead. I don’t at any level want to be a > luddite. No, anything else. Let’s shoot for underground > cities on Mars, reprogram the genes of children to be able to > endure heat, etc. > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith > *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2021 12:53 PM > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the Big (Bright) Green Lie > > > > Merle - > > Thanks for commenting on the film-maker: A good background on > Julia and the documentary: > > > > https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/adv/article-how-canadian-filmmaker-and-environmentalist-julia-barnes-decided-to/ > > <https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/adv/article-how-canadian-filmmaker-and-environmentalist-julia-barnes-decided-to/> > > I didn't realize it just premiered on yesterEarthDay. > > The point of my anecdote about Jensen is that I don't think > *he* carries the baggage, but it *does* follow him around! > Which is always the problem with popular movements, they are, > well... Popular! in the best and worse sense of the term. > > I feel blessed to have found Jensen's works early (by some > measure), it has helped keep me from falling into the > TechnoUtopian basin of attraction entirely. The complex > (precessing figure-eights for the most part) orbits I *do* > follow in this topic can be very unnerving (one day looking to > Elon Musk or Bill Gates or the latest advancement in Solid > State Battery Tech or the Stock Market's euphoria around Green > Tech, etc. and the next day noticing the unintended (and > un-tended-to) side effects of the last round of "technical > fixes to non-technical problems"). > > - Steve > > On 4/23/21 1:38 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: > > Thanks Steve. I'm still processing and appreciate > knowledgeable and thoughtful feedback. I'm very > interested in Julia and her efforts (I think she's 25), > which seems to me to add authenticity to the quest for > what the hell to do next. And I agree that Derrick has a > lot of baggage and is a drawback. Julia decided to make > the movie after she read the book. > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 1:28 PM Steve Smith > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Merle - > > I don't know how much traction you will get amongst > this group of radical technophiles (self sometimes > included). Unfortunately I think that is one of the > most effective modes of those promoting the Big > (Green) Lie (appealing to technophilic/technoutopic > sentiments for "full speed ahead"). Another is (also > unfortunately) to recruit the conspiracy nut types to > (ab)use this line of thinking to fuel their own > anti-human agendas. In the moment it looks like a > narrow ridge to walk down. Maybe "the Donald" has done > us a service with *his* Big Lie, to attune us to our > susceptibility to "Big Lies"? > > I have followed Derrick Jensen from early on (when he > published Language Older than Words > > <https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf>) > and have a strong sympathy for what he is oft accused > of as "Anarcho-Primitivism". This movie (and the > book) Bright Green Lies is, in my estimation "not > wrong" in most if not all of it's positions. But that > is not enough. > > I used to be part of a regular community centered > around Jensen but I had to drop out, not because of > Jensen's ideas or actions, but because the radical > fringe that was drawn there couldn't hold two > impossible thoughts in their heads/hearts at the same > time. There was (in my opinion) a strong draw to a > sort of "revenge aesthetic" among the more radical who > were indulging in the most extreme form of your own > (you introduced us to it most of a year ago) > /Cassandrafreude/. They elevated Jensen to the > prophet of a Cult of Personality, somewhat against his > will... I haven't tracked this lately but the > centroids of these movements implied by the likes of > Jensen, Paul Hawken, Bill McKibben have entered > mainstream and may ultimately represent the current > phase of the evolution of the *first world's* > post-capitalist/climate-change aesthetic. > > So I believe that an important aspect of YOUR work is > evolving to include not just exposing the Big (Green) > Lies we tell ourselves, but healing the implicit rifts > growing within the diverse coalition of > progressive/humanist/environmentalists/pan-somethingists > or helping them/us to build a healthy ecosystem of > somewhat diverse and often competing *strategies* for > achieving a common *stated* goal. > > The most critical aspect of BrightGreenLies' story for > me is that it is self-contradictory to recruit (or > rebuild) a hyper-capitalistic profit-centric > mega-industrial framework to "rescue us" from the > trajectory that is fundamentally part of their model > of their mere existence. That is not to say that I > have a "better plan" really (nor do I endorse many of > those implied by BrightGreenLies), but I definitely > accept that if the likes of Elon Musk or (even) Bill > Gates ends up "rescuing" us from the slow-moving > disaster (aka "Jackpot > > <https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/02/william-gibson-apocalypse-it-s-been-happening-least-100-years>" > in Bill Gibson's vernacular) we are in, it will only > be a delay or divergence from the most obvious, most > imminent of disasters we are bearing down on. I > believe (but cannot begin to prove) that we are at the > beginning of a cascade of birfurcations and that > whatever is on the "other side" of that is going to > look *radically* different from what we live with now > (from first to third world, inclusive). I highly > doubt *all* of the Utopian (and most of the Dystopian) > visions we tend to dwell on with Gibson's particular > version being only one zany example juxtaposed maybe > with that of Miller's "A Canticle for Leibowitz > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Canticle_for_Leibowitz>". > > I believe it is critically hard to simultaneously > optimize one's local/personal/individualistic > circumstance while also trying to optimize a global > measure as well. I don't think we are particularly > well wired for this... but it IS our ability to > abstract and language and cognize which *might* allow > us to evolve our *sociopoliticaleconomic* (nod to > DaveW) selves off of the family of trajectories we > have set ourselves upon (and double down with > movements *like* the Big Green LIe). There are folks > with the intellectual/abstractional/synthetic > capability here to participate in that IMO, but > finding the right perspective and a place to obtain > traction to do so remains an unsolved problem. > > For better or worse, I believe movements like > McKibben's <https://350.org/> and Hawkins' > <https://www.drawdown.org/> and Gates > <https://www.gatesfoundation.org/>' and Sanders'/AOC > > <https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf> > are perhaps necessary excursions from what to the > "enlightened" might feel is a "shortest path". I > want to invoke another thread here with Stephen's > "Least Action Path" conception, but in this > arbitrarily high dimensional space of "human endeavor" > convolved with the "biocryoatmogeospherical" space > with which we are co-evolving (again nod to DaveW) > sociopolitcaleconomicspiritually. > > I hope your attempt here (and elsewhere) to harness > "the likes of us" or more importantly to get us to > "harness ourselves" (there's an image,a corrolary to > "hoisting oneself on one's own petard"?) > > Carry On (while I Rattle On)! > > -Steve > > > > I'd like to start a new stream for those > interested, but first you have to watch this film: > > > > https://www.brightgreenlies.com > <https://www.brightgreenlies.com> > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @merle110 > > > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > > un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @merle110 > > > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > > un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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