Fascinating example, David! George Duncan Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University georgeduncanart.com See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram Land: (505) 983-6895 Mobile: (505) 469-4671
My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos. "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion." >From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy. On Mon, Jun 27, 2022 at 1:33 PM Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: > Syncretic might be a term of interest here. Usually applied in the area of > religion, e.g., the fusion of Vudun and Catholicism, so that Legba is a > black saint in his niche in the Catholic cathedral in Havana. > > My favorite example of syncretism was a nighttime pageant in Rio de > Janeiro. A hill was covered in matte black so a spotlighted figure would > appear to descend from heaven when walking down the hill. At the top of the > hill, the figure was the Virgin Mary in immaculate white robes. As She > descended clothing was shed and when she reached the bottom of the hill she > was fully naked and 9 months pregnant, the personification of an > Afro-Brazilian fertility goddess. > > dave west > > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2022, at 11:04 AM, glen wrote: > > Yeah, I don't like "synthetic" as much because it seems to rely on a > > false dichotomy between us and the other animals. Is a termite mound > > "synthetic"? Granted, "artificial" may hide some of that, too. But I > > think it's reasonable to say there are, say, naturally occurring > > (geological) mounds. Then there are artisan-generated, artificial, > > termite mounds, where the termites are the artisans. [⛧] > > > > And none of that artisanal stuff *requires* the artisan to > > reductionistically "understand" everything from first principles in the > > way "synthetic" might. "Synthetic" also often carries another false > > dichotomy between synthesis and analysis. It's false because nobody > > ever does pure [synthe|analy]sis. They're always done together. > > "Artificial" allows for that mode mixing. [We've had this discussion > > before in the usage of terms like "naturfact".] > > > > And that targets artificial morality nicely, I think. I've never really > > grokked the difference between morality and ethics, I think because > > making the distinction is a kind of composition/division fallacy. > > Ethics seems to carry the pretense of (or a slippery slope to) > > universality/monism, whereas morals seem to carry the pretense of > > individualism/relativism. If laid out on a spectrum, that's fine. But > > to draw a sharp line seems like sophistry. > > > > While I'm a consultant on a project regarding the ethics of AI in > > medicine, what interests me most is simulating the agency of an > > individual practitioner ... similar to the way we used to play > > red-blue-gray teams back at lockheed ... or the way you might simulate > > modern [cough] cyberwarfare. > > > > > > [⛧] Of course, you have to go all the way down to the 3rd defn in AH to > > find the right one. So if "synthetic" might mean "cobbled together from > > stuff you found lying around", then maybe it's better than > > "artificial". What I mean by both terms is closer to "glitch" ... a > > little bit of intent and a little bit of accident. > > > > AH "3. A phenomenon or feature not originally present or expected and > > caused by an interfering external agent, action, or process, as an > > unwanted feature in a microscopic specimen after fixation, in a > > digitally reproduced image, or in a digital audio recording." > > > > On 6/27/22 09:54, Steve Smith wrote: > >> I appreciate your addition of the 'M' to the *-match and want to remind > myself out loud in front of you that I once (and maybe should again) > preferred *synthetic* to *artificial*.... in the early days of VR, > "Artificial Reality" was in the running as a term, but I felt *Synthetic > Reality* carried the assertive sense of intentionality. "Artificial" felt > more passive... an artifact of a willful creation with "Synthetic" feeling > closer to the dynamic act of *synthesizing*. And of course now (maybe not > then), the spirit OF a mashup vs a whole-cloth thing comes through with > "Synthetic". This of course before I came to learn the terms artifice and > artificer in this context. > >> > >> Is "Ethics" not in some sense *artificed* or *constructed* morality? > I don't know, it is definitely an interesting tangent to all the other > tangents that we tangent on here (tangentially). As an aside, does a > tangent of a tangent (of a tangent) imply higher and higher derivatives, it > seems like it is precisely that?! but in what dimension? > >> > >> On 6/27/22 4:16 PM, glen wrote: > >>> Thanks very much for that link to mental contagion. It targets a > number of problems I have with intersubjectivity, even if the author's > nowhere near as skeptical as I think they should be. >8^D > >>> > >>> I drafted and deleted a response to Marcus' point about simple or > high-order prediction. My draft targeted the distinction between > [si|e]mulation more directly than yours. But yours homesteads a much more > aggressive territory. (Tangentially, one of the A*'s I've been most > interested in lately is AM - artificial morality. It turns out that > simulation has a huge role to play in spoofing biases.) > >>> > >>> I intended to end that deleted post with my old rant about the (lack > of a) difference between verification and validation ... a standard > pedantic stance of gray bearded simulationists. I was once laughed out of > the room at an SCS meeting for suggesting they're foundationally the same > thing. Pffft! > >>> > >>> But all this hearkens back to the long-running thread on > [in|ex]tensional attributes and the ontological status of their > distinction. When is mimicry sufficient and when is "from whole cloth" > necessary? As someone quipped re: Lemoine's attribution of sentience to > LaMDA, "I have met meat Beings I consider less than sentient." > >>> > >>> On 6/25/22 23:55, Steve Smith wrote: > >>>> This is what made it through my semi-permeable filter-bubble membrane > first thing this morning (CET): > >>>> > >>>> > https://theconversation.com/googles-powerful-ai-spotlights-a-human-cognitive-glitch-mistaking-fluent-speech-for-fluent-thought-185099 > >>>> > >>>> which became grist for the mill we have been grinding with here of > late. It highlights interesting things like how flawed (but useful?) the > Turing Test is. The TT represents precisely "the glitch". I think this > idea points in the general direction of conscious empathy... if we > recognize language fluency *as* mental fluency, then it is more obvious > that we would grant others who present language fluency as being similar to > ourselves, possibly assuming that "other" is closer to "not other" simply > because of the familiar language that flows out of us. > >>>> > >>>> In my (limited) EU travels this season I have heard only a half-dozen > languages with half as many accents/dialects each... In english-speaking > ireland, a little gaelic slipped out here and there but the accent > referenced it with every lilt. This was not unfamiliar to my ear, so I > mostly heard it as "same", but in Wales, the Welsh was not nearly (at all?) > familiar and the romanisation/anglification of the written Welsh was > overwhelmingly unfamiliar. When I read a sign, I felt like I was left with > a mouthful of consonants and diacritics that I had to spit out just to > clear my vocal passage to start on the next phrase. > >>>> > >>>> It gave me more sympathy for my non Southwest colleagues > struggling with the various anglifications of the hispanification of a > dozen different native American languages (starting in my neighborhood with > Tewa/Tiwa/Towa and expanding out withe Keres and Dine' and Zuni ...) The > (nearly conventional/normalized) rendering of most of these languages is > for me familiar enough that I don't struggle or wince, but after > (especially Welsh)... "I get it". When confronted with each British > accent (I couldn't identify or distinguish many if any) it took a few hours > at least to become habituated enough to not be disturbed (intrigued or put > off, depending) by the unfamiliar sound patterns and often idiomatic > constructions. > >>>> > >>>> I thought i would be able to "hear" French as comfortably as I did > Italian 10 years ago, but it seems the "Romance" connections between > Spanish and Italian and the plethora of Latin words/phrases in science made > it much more familiar than French. The tiny bit of French I think I am > habituated to are a few Americanized stock phrases and maybe a very little > bit of dialogue from movies... After a week of hearing almost nothing > *but* French it no longer felt outrageously "Other" even if I couldn't > hardly parse a thing out of a run-together-spoken-phrase. Mary and I > observed one another trying to speak English to someone who did not speak > much if any and we realized that we were both prone to repeat the same > sentence with a word choice or two changed, but more emphatically (and > therefore more run-together) each time. Not helpful, and perhaps what the > few French who bothered to speak to us once it was established that we had > no language in common, were doing themselves. It > >>>> was hard to recognize even word-breaks in the word-salad coming at > us. The little German we were exposed to had a *different* set of > familiar words and sounds and I think the English and German might have a > much stronger phonemic overlap, making it not sound quite as foreign... > though I was left wanting to clear my throat after hearing much spoken > german... and then here in the Netherlands with *many* > English-speaking-with-Dutch-Accent we are much more comfortable... and much > of the written Dutch is familiar even when the pronunciation is a git > foreign. > >>>> > >>>> > https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/the-cognitive-glitches-of-humans-laurie-santos-on-what-makes-the-human-mind-so-special > >>>> > >>>> In trying to (re)find the first article, I ran across this article > which was a bit more interesting to me. The point they make about human > cognitive bias against anyone who speaks differently (acutely illuminated > by the once-familiar term "deaf and dumb" or "dumb-mute" for those who > could not speak (due to deafness, aphasia, or perhaps some trauma? The > line from the Rock Opera "Tommy"s Pinball Wizard comes to mind: "That > deaf, dumb and blind kid, could sure play a mean pin ballll!" > >>>> > >>>> A counter to the *negative* bias I recently heard was: "Don't > mistake an accent for a personality"... > >>>> > >>>> It is fascinating to me how many ways we can split a hair in > discussing AI, etc. A* really. Intelligence, Reasoning, Life, > Consciousness, etc. ad nauseum. And yet it is useful (I think) to note > that no one of them is really broad nor narrow enough at the same time. > Each is a facet or reflection of the other. The second article seems to > discuss "emotional intelligence" or I think more aptly "emotional > knowledge". My very first (and practically only) published "artpiece" > was a visual study on the distinction between "knowing" and > "knowing-about", with AI climbing the steep part of the hill toward a > pinnacle (or more likely series of false summits) of "knowing about" > without possibly getting at all any closer (at all) to "knowing". > >>>> > >>>> This leads me back to Marcus' haunting suggestion that "is learning > anything more than imitation/emulation?" > >>>> > >>>> Following Glen's ideation about bureaucracy as a form of tech, I find > that a great deal of my daily interaction with other people is, in fact, > with their bureaucratic roles. I am seeking a transaction... knowledge, > information, material goods, a service. And given the level of the mutual > (mis)understanding I've been enduring for over a month now in those > transactions, It now feels like a luxury to expect a service person to > articulate their preferences and basis of their preferences in a given > baked good, bit of unfamiliar produce, or even (gawdess forbid) Beer! But > it has trained me to "listen for emotional content" more than substance. > If I ask for a "Blonde" or a "Bruun" or a "Trippel" or a "Wit" and they > rattle off something about one or more of them, I will choose one based on > the level of excitement in their voice-eye over any imagined information > content their response implied. I am sometimes disappointed but almost > always surprised. The vocabulary of > >>>> European Beers overlaps (up to language) what I am familiar with > amongst American Craft beers but my exploration is wider (through > clumsiness if nothing else). My best strategy is simply to (try to) ask > for "whatever is brewed locally". Also a good strategy for food it seems. > >>>> > > > > > > -- > > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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