On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 5:23 PM Stephen Guerin <[email protected]> wrote:
> Steve Smith writes: > > There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved > in modulating these processes. > > Jack (not George) Cowan gave a great lecture at BiosGroup in 2000 on this > very topic: > > " What geometric visual hallucinations tell us about the visual cortex" > https://www.math.uh.edu/~dynamics/reprints/papers/nc.pdf > > Abstract: Geometric visual hallucinations are seen by many observers after > taking hallucinogens such as LSD, cannabis, mescaline or psilocybin, on > viewing bright > flickering lights, on waking up or falling asleep, in “near death” > experiences, > and in many other syndromes. Kl¨uver organized the images into four groups > called “form constants”: (1) tunnels and funnels, (2) spirals, (3) > lattices, including honeycombs and triangles, and (4) cobwebs. In general > the images do > not move with the eyes. We interpret this to mean that they are generated > in the brain. Here we present a theory of their origin in visual cortex > (area > V1), based on the assumption that the form of the retino–cortical map and > the > architecture of V1 determine their geometry. We model V1 as the continuum > limit of a lattice of interconnected hypercolumns, each of which itself > comprises > a number of interconnected iso-orientation columns. Based on anatomical > evidence we assume that the lateral connectivity between hypercolumns > exhibits > symmetries rendering it invariant under the action of the Euclidean group > E(2), > composed of reflections and translations in the plane, and a (novel) > shift–twist > action. Using this symmetry, we show that the various patterns of activity > that spontaneously emerge when V1’s spatially uniform resting state becomes > unstable, correspond to the form constants when transformed to the visual > field > using the retino–cortical map. The results are sensitive to the detailed > specification of the lateral connectivity and suggest that the cortical > mechanisms > which generate geometric visual hallucinations are closely related to > those used > to process edges, contours, textures and surfaces. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > [email protected] <[email protected]> > CEO, https://www.simtable.com <http://www.simtable.com/> > 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1600+Lena+St+%23D1,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505+office:+(505?entry=gmail&source=g> > office: (505 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/1600+Lena+St+%23D1,+Santa+Fe,+NM+87505+office:+(505?entry=gmail&source=g> > )995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828 > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:40 AM Steve Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > >> And the retina is not a simple pixel-camera... even one with a >> non-uniform, non-rectangular distribution of photon-integrators... there >> is plenty of processing going on between rods/cones and optic-nerve. Do >> we suppose that *these* layers are significantly short-circuited by (some) >> psychadelics? >> >> >> Retinal Processing Layers >> <https://www.embl.org/news/science/vision-unveiled-new-roles-for-the-retina-in-visual-processing/#:~:text=Located%20at%20the%20back%20of,colour%2C%20contrast%2C%20and%20motion.> >> >> There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved >> in modulating these processes. >> >> I tend to believe (with no specific references to offer) that the more >> interesting mediation/modulation DaveW gestures towards goes on further >> down the chain of processing. Loosening up some of the (over?) >> model-fitting going on downstream from edge/contrast-enhanced perceptual >> info. For example, I don't think that the military-industrial complex >> will have secret psychoactive drugs which replace night-vision goggles >> anytime soon. BUT I am more inclined to believe that cognition/perception - >> *sharpening*/*widening* pharmacology is already in use . Cigarettes and >> Coffee were in WWII/Korea/Vietnam Rations as well as Bennies >> <https://allthatsinteresting.com/amphetamine-use-world-war-2>. Good >> thing the Wermacht hadn't hit on PCP >> <https://drugabuse.com/drugs/hallucinogens/pcp/history-statistics/> by >> then... already Jacked Ubermenchen on Hydrazine afterburners? >> >> Are all our geriatric politicians on B12/Aderall cocktails? Oh to see >> the pharmacological records for our most colorful politicians today! >> >> <Cyberpunk Segue> >> >> As is my habit, I refer to a Science Fiction Novel of relevance: Hard >> Wired <http://www.walterjonwilliams.net/excerpt-hardwired.html> - Walter >> Jon Williams. On the one hand, this early cyberpunk novel is armatured >> around advanced tech facilitated by earth-orbit near-zero-gravity, >> near-perfect-vacuum, near-zero-regulation, and >> near-zero-distribution-challenges (de-orbited bundles) supporting a >> florescence of pharmaceutical research/development/production/use. On >> the other hand, the protaganist (as I remember him) was wonderfully >> oldSkool, using a 3 chamber insulin-pump style tool interfaced to his >> neural interface to drive his Red/White/Blue drug-drip system. Red and >> White are advanced forms of the conventional mapping (downers/uppers) to >> support on-demand relaxation/rest and on-demand energy/focus. Blue is an >> on-demand perception-sharpening/broadening drug. >> >> <Strip City Segue> >> >> Walter is one of a fascinating contingent of NM contemporary writers >> nominally from ABQ (Belen I think) and HW published in 1987 was an early >> throwdown in the Cyberpunk Genre, and is set in the near-future >> Flagstaff-Albuquerque "Strip City" (and low-earth orbit). Considering the >> proliferation/existence of strip-cities that have emerged along >> transportation (road, river, etc) routes organically, the Saudi "Line" Glen >> recently brought up here seems like an obvious ideation for an Arabic >> architect jacked on too much "Spice" ("Dune "reference). >> >> Even 20 years ago, Colorado Front Range residents were referring to >> Ft-Pueblo to reference the (near) continuous development of the I25 >> corridor from Ft. Collins to Pueblo. I flew back from Europe into Denver >> and drove from my daughter's place in Parker (south-south-Denver) to Pueblo >> on the back "farm roads" further out in the plains and discovered that the >> Ft-Pueblo stripmall-strip had grown out a good 10-20 miles East of I25 at >> several points (Castle-Rock, ColoSpgs, Pueblo). >> >> </Segue> >> >> </Segue> >> >> On 8/18/22 11:00 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> >> The retina isn't perfect by any means, and the visual cortex must fix its >> inputs to make vision seem better than the raw inputs. This is from >> memory, but I can look up references. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[email protected]> <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Prof David West >> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 8:56 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] dystopian vision(s) >> >> An analogy that might clarify what was being conveyed in the original post: >> >> A RAW image - no compression, no processing - is what the brain/mind can >> perceive. >> >> JPEG is the image after going through the "survival filter" - both >> compression and adjustments to saturation, contrast, and sharpness. There >> are all kinds of advantages to JPEG, but "accuracy/fidelity" is not one of >> them. Consider all the consternation amateur photographers had a few months >> back with their phones failing to capture the redness of the sky in San >> Francisco and other parts of CA. >> >> Drugs, so the advocates claim, are not an alternate transformation—not >> HEIF—but simply a removal of the compression/processing mechanism entirely. >> >> Of course, even RAW is lossy: a few million pixels captured from the near >> infinity of discrete photons available. I suspect the brain/mind is less >> lossy, but to what degree? >> >> And my own experiences, both chemical and meditative, suggest to me that >> some kind of patterned sense making is still going on because my >> 'mind/consciousness' still interprets things — I still see the Argus Goat >> (sometimess a ram instead of a goat, with multiple eyes, often conflated >> with Argus Panoptes) allbeit It and I might have a conversation. >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 18, 2022, at 2:15 PM, glen wrote: >> >> I'm glad you softened it. Codependence *is* "organic to the nature of >> one's existence". What I worry about are those that idealize >> themselves as only codependent on some singular thing, which is what >> you're calling out when you talk about identification with thrill >> seeking or whatever. It's the single-ness that's the problem, not the >> codependence. >> >> Marcus and Dave seem tightly analogous in their positive responses to >> technological entheogens and physio-chemical ehtheogens, respectively. >> And you, being a bit of an ehtheogen-teatotaler, if I've understood >> correctly, align with Marcus. In contrast, I'm agnostic about the >> origins and pathway of any entheogens I might become codependent upon. >> Drugs, even very old ones brewed up by one-eyed witches in the outback >> bush, *are* technology, nearly identical to the Mojo Lens or the >> Neuralink. What's that stanza from Alice in Chains? >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9GAEFTeWko >> " >> What's my drug of choice? >> Well, what have you got? >> I don't go broke >> And I do it a lot >> " >> >> >> On 8/18/22 11:36, Steve Smith wrote: >> >> On 8/18/22 9:47 AM, glen wrote: >> >> Yeah. I'm not as concerned as you seem to be about the addictive nature of >> alternative perspectives. Obviously, because my whole schtick is about >> attempting to take alternative perspectives. The addict has to admit they >> have a problem before treatment will work, eh? >> >> My use of the term "addictive" was unfortunate. I didn't mean it >> particularly perjoratively. I mostly just meant the awareness that one can >> become "codependent" on substances/experiences which are not otherwise >> organic to the nature of one's existence in-context. Tarzan and his friends >> may have done something vaguely similar to bungee jumping and skydiving >> (vine swinging and cliff diving), but those who have made the high-tech >> equivalents of those experiences part of their very persona have "given >> over" in some way that may or may not be something to "worry about"... it >> is just in a practical sense a "commitment". I have known plenty of people >> who have made "commitments" to all kinds of things/substances (caffiene, >> nicotine, alcohol, thc, gucose, lipids, parkour, etc) which they are >> virtually symbiotic with (addicted to?). I have my own practical >> commitments to all kinds of behaviours and consumptions which are >> effectively now *part of who I am*. I might have been a somewhat different >> person today if I had never become "committed" to alcohol, caffiene, >> earning/spending $USD, driving planes, trains, automobiles, etc. >> >> But if we adopt the perspective of the "longtermists", "transhumansits", or >> similar, and believe that essentialist computation is the limit point, the >> thing just over the horizon toward which evolution works, then our *brain* >> is one of the first/best instantiations of such computers. (Maybe I need >> scare quotes, there, too ... "computers"?) Quantum comput[ers|ing] is a >> close second only because too many people are ignorant enough of current >> computing to think hard about its limitations. >> >> FWIW I was just re-introduced to Bostrom's Astronomical Waste >> <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> >> <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> arguement in the context of a >> New Yorker Article on Effective Altruism which I think you have referenced a >> few times here. A more computationally/entropic framed version of the >> Dyson Sphere <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> >> <https://nickbostrom.com/astronomical/waste> (or more originally the >> Stapledon Light Trap): >> >> An excerpt from/Star Maker/which mentions Dyson spheres: >> >> Not only was every solar system now surrounded by a gauze of light >> traps, which focused the escaping solar energy for intelligent use, so that >> the whole galaxy was dimmed, but many stars that were not suited to be suns >> were disintegrated, and rifled of their prodigious stores of subatomic >> energy. >> >> >> So another form of Dave's argument, still metaphysical, is this Smolin-esque >> (or even Schrödinger-esque ala negentropy?) concept that our objective(s) is >> tightly coupled pockets of deep computation. And *that*, given that our >> brains are fantastic computers, gives some weight to the idea that deep and >> broad introspection gets one closer to God, closer to the objective, closer >> to the real occult Purpose behind it all in much the same way as studying >> quantum mechanics and quantum computation. >> >> My argument *against* that is that even if tightly coupled (coherent) >> pockets of computation are a crucial element, so is the interstitial space >> *between* the tight pockets ... like black holes orbiting each other or >> somesuch. It's not merely the individual pocket/computer that's interesting, >> it's the formation, dissolution, and interaction of the pockets that's more >> interesting. Actually, then, the *void* is more interesting than the >> non-void. >> >> Tangentially: >> >> Panic! At the Disks: First Rest-frame Optical Observations of Galaxy >> Structure at z>3 with JWST in the SMACS 0723 >> Fieldhttps://arxiv.org/abs/2207.09428 >> >> I appreciate having near-peers who are "peering" into the same general >> (vaguely familiar) areas of the fractal abyss that I am... >> >> >> On 8/18/22 08:03, Steve Smith wrote: >> >> The experience *I* have (or the way I have mostly interpreted it) with >> various ways of "playing around with my interface/membrane/boundary" is that >> alternatively addictive to the point of becoming "essential" and a >> "vertiginous stare into the abyss" at the same time. I'm not talking >> particularly or specifically about ingesting entheogens or any other >> substance known to acutely adjust reality. There are (obviously) many other >> ways to "play around with the boundary". For what it is worth, Pandora is >> playing Denver's iconic "Rocky Mountain High" in the background as I >> complete this paragraph. >> >> I currently attribute this to the alone/all-one duality and the flexibility >> (elastic and plastic) nature of self-other boundaries (membranes?) as a >> conscious ego. (Sting - How Fragile we are on Pandora now, segueing into >> judy Collins' Both Sides Now). >> >> If I take "the Uni/Multi-verse" to be nothing more/less than a single >> complex adaptive system which can(not) be reduced to a system of systems >> (only reduceable by an imperfectly isolated system (self) which has a >> compressed "model" of the universe as a system of systems of which it"self" >> is a perfectly isolated subsystem(self)) then the experience of self-other >> and "gaining insight/parallax into (R)reality" isn't all that puzzling (to >> this self's model of itself within the universal). >> >> This of course still leaves (for this illusory "self") the "hard problem" of >> the fact (rather than the nature) of (subjective) experience itself... >> >> I have a feeling (in my subjective experience as a self) that the "breath of >> consciousness" might be the compression/decompression cycle itself? >> Talking (linearly) about this stuff is a fractal/recursive minefield of >> rabbit-holes worthy of Alice tripping on Entheogens? >> >> - Steve >> >> On 8/18/22 8:34 AM, glen wrote: >> >> Parallax is an important technique for getting at things just *beyond* one's >> current representational power. So, were I to try to steelman your argument, >> I'd suggest that, yes, the process by which our bodies >> refine/focus/hone-down our attention to a smaller, compressed thing from a >> larger thing (whether the largess is "noise" or not is a tangent) is >> important. And the entheogens permute that honing down, that reduction, to >> create a different transformation. >> >> It's reasonable to speculate that the transformation we execute under the >> influence of an entheogen might be *less* reductive than that we execute >> when "sober". But to argue that the transformation under the influence is a >> more accurate match to reality is fraught. Less reductive? Sure. More >> accurate? Well, that would require us to go into that tangent. What do we >> mean by more accurate? Does randomness exist? Etc. >> >> So we might want to be careful with that crossing between relatively tame >> statements like "entheogens alter the cross-membrane transformation >> providing parallax toward the out there" versus more metaphysical statements >> like "entheogens provide a better transformation (or no tranformation) >> across the boundary to the out there". >> >> Thanks for clarifying. I think I have a better understanding of the >> argument. Those of us who play around with our interface probably *do* have >> a better understanding of reality than those of us imprisoned by their one, >> sole interface. But we don't need to go so far as to say a drugged mind is >> more capable of perceiving the real reality. >> >> On 8/16/22 17:16, Prof David West wrote: >> >> If you assume, or believe, that the mind (body-brain-embodied mind-Atman) >> naturally processes 100% of the inputs and assume/believe that a survival >> enhancing mechanism filters that stream to create the illusionary subset >> that we call Reality, then entheogens work to dismantle the filtering >> mechanism and expose the Real Reality. >> >> Missing in my first post was a hidden premise, that any augmentations >> (Neuralink, et. al.) are almost certainly based on whatever we think we >> understand of the filtering mechanism, not the Mind, and therefore would >> augment/enhance that mechanism and therefore lead to results opposite of >> what is desired. >> >> The missing premise is pretty much conjecture on my part but is grounded in >> an advanced, but not expert, understanding of AI and neural network >> technologies; so it should be taken with a tablespoon (thousands of grains) >> of salt. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2022, at 11:22 AM, glen wrote: >> >> Opposite of what? I don't understand how augmentation is the >> opposite of the entheogens (drugs or meditation). Are you saying >> that, e.g. the Mojo Lens or Neuralink further restrict, whereas >> the entheogens lessen the restriction? >> >> If so, then my guess is you could do the same sort of >> restriction modulation with any augmentation device. E.g. if >> there are 1 billion possible data feeds you could receive, >> decreasing them is like an undrugged person self-censoring and >> such, then increasing them is like taking a entheogen ... that is, assuming >> Church-Turing. >> >> If we reject C-T, then it seems reasonable to argue that the >> body "computes" something that any computer-based augmentation >> would restrict, by definition, making it impossible to expand >> beyond what the augment provides. Computer-based augmentaiton >> would provide a hard limit ... an unavoidable abstraction/subset of reality. >> >> On 8/15/22 19:04, Prof David West wrote: >> >> The hallucino-philia (and Buddhist epistemologists) would argue that our >> brains (minds) already fully grasp / cognize / perceive our physical >> reality. But, for survival purposes, it self-censors and presents our >> consciousness/awareness/attention with a small abstract subset of that >> reality—an illusion. >> >> Drugs and meditation are 'subtractive' in that they dismantle the >> abstraction/reduction apparatus that generates the illusion hiding our >> 'full-grasping'. >> >> If such a belief were "true" then "augmenting our brains" would be the exact >> opposite, and exceedingly harmful, approach ... >> >> ... unless, the augmentation was a permanent [lsd | psylocibin | >> mescaline] drip. >> >> >> -- >> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. >> .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru >> presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609
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