DaveW -
Very well articulated and I am pleased to hear the background of Go4 and
OOPSLA, etc. I particularly appreciate your casting it as a solution
vs problem space problem.
I read _Notes on the Synthesis of Form_ in tandem with Kauffman's
_Investigations_ while on a month-vacation in NZ during the Gore-Bush
hanging-chad business at the end of 2000. It was a very liminal and
therefore pivotal time for me to be reading these things. I
pre-ordered Alexander's "Nature of Order_ and read them (often with
great suffering) as they came in over several years of publication (I
forget the dates, probably ending around 2005 ?). I did not know (or
appreciate) the links from this work to Catholic Fundamentalism, but
will look at them with a new eye as a result. I was also trying to tie
in Lakoff's work on _Metaphors we Live by_ and _Embodied Mathematics_ at
the time, as well as Hofstadter/Mitchell's _Analogical Reasoning_ into
a coherent *apprehension* (not theory or treatise) of at least one of
our *many* modes of apprehending the world, built and found.
- SS
On 9/26/22 8:47 PM, Prof David West wrote:
Alexander was a Janus: a mathematician at his father's insistence when
he wanted to be an artist. An architect by compromise. Face two was a
Taoist mystic infused with hard core Catholic fundamentalism.
His Ph.D. thesis—which became his first book, /Notes on the Synthesis
of Form/—was an attempt to define a mathematical science of
[architectural/industrial] design. But in the same book, he stated
that optimal design arose from a "non-selfconscious" process, embedded
in myth and ritual and culture.
/A Pattern Language/, was part of a trilogy that included /The
Timeless Way of Building/ and the /Oregon Experiment/. /APL/ was
written by committee and edited by Alexander (although he took all the
credit) to fulfill a government grant. His mystical side was front and
center in /TTW/; and the Oregon Experiment was a case study.
Alexander transcended Patterns and his last major work—/The Nature of
Order, vol 1-4/—centered 15 generative properties that have little to
nothing to do with patterns and is far more mystical and Catholic-God
focused than his earlier work.
Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck brought /APL/ to the attention of the
software community as a workshop at OOPSLA (ACM conference on Object
Oriented Programming Systems and Applications). The 'Gang of Four'
authors of /Pattern Languages of Programming/ participated in that
workshop. A year after their book was published a mock trial of the
GoF for "heresy" was staged and they were found guilty.
Perhaps the most significant error made by the software community was
seeking patterns in "solution space" rather than "problem space;" the
latter being where most of Alexander's work was focused. The software
patterns community looked at written programs to find multiple
instances of similar bodies of code and attempt to discern a
generalized problem that they solved (albeit with contextual
idiosyncrasies).
There are hundreds of thousands of software patterns published, but
maybe three or four that actually capable of being applied in multiple
contexts—of actually being considered "true" patterns.
The connection to geometry, both in Alexander and in software
patterns, was never more than tenuous. A majority of the patterns in
APL (e.g., "Dancing in the Streets," "Sleeping in Public") had nothing
to do with geometry or any other mathematical formalism. Even patterns
like "Light from Two Sides" are geometric in the only the simplest sense.
The math in /Notes/ was algebra, not geometry. Only in his last major
work NO, can you find properties that are overtly geometric, e.g.,
"centers" and "alternating repetition."
more upon request
davew
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 5:13 PM, glen wrote:
> I'd appreciate you (and SteveS) throwing some words at it. In
> particular, since software patterns are *supposed* to be linked to the
> geometric patterns of architecture, *where* or *how* has it gone wrong
> in extrapolation? Did Alexander go wrong in his extrapolation? Or did
> others [mis]interpret?
>
> (I've purposefully left the Subject the same because it definitely
> relates to Chan's morphology based taxonomy and my argument with my
> meso-biologist friend about "species diversity" versus "phylogenetic
> diversity".)
>
> On 9/26/22 15:35, Prof David West wrote:
>> I am a patterns and Alexander expert. glen's uncertainty / mild
antipathy is spot on. Software patterns are an oxymoron.
>>
>> Strong words, but happy to back them up with dozens of papers
written/presented and hours of discussion.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022, at 6:29 AM, glen wrote:
>>> Very cool! Thanks.
>>>
>>> In particular, our property abuts "the ravine", which is a semi-wild
>>> place. The permaculture categories might help me orient my own
>>> intuition (that everything in the ravine should be left alone) with my
>>> neighbor's (clearing the whole area and reintroducing natives). He
owns
>>> the majority of it. So, c'est la vie ... or perhaps "telle est la
>>> mort". (Don't blame me. I don't know French.) One thing this zone 0-5
>>> model might permit is modularity. That blog post implies such with the
>>> inverted garden interface. But it seems like there could be pockets of
>>> zone0es in wild areas and pockets of zone5s in urban areas,
>>> particularly in sprawling cities like LA or Houston. Growing up in
>>> Houston, where every square inch of semi-abandoned land seemed rapidly
>>> reclaimed by the swamp, is probably the source of my skepticism
with my
>>> friends' diversity doctrine.
>>>
>>> There's a lot to digest in the biophilia links. I have to confess, I
>>> haven't given pattern languages much attention. It always seems
>>> motivated by geometry, which fails for me. Of course, I'm familiar
>>> enough with software patterns. But that's always failed for me as
well.
>>> They seem too ephemeral, unstable ... i.e. not real, convenient
>>> fiction, and *perfect* opportunity for gurus to blind others with
their
>>> gobbledygook mouth sounds. I guess it reminds me of category theory,
>>> too abstract for my ape brain. But maybe some of his earlier work on
>>> Clifford algebras might motivate me? I could start here, I guess:
>>> https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-1472-2_41
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>>
>>> On 9/24/22 10:29, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/22 9:49 AM, glen wrote:
>>>>> Such efforts seem so inherently metaphorical it's difficult for
me to approach a concrete conversation. For example, I have a couple
of biologist friends, one meso (bugs) and one macro (ungulates), who
thought I was being contrarian when I challenged their assertion that
biodiversity in urban areas was *obviously* lower than that of natural
areas like forests. Of course, I admit my ignorance up front. Maybe
they are. But it's just not obvious to me.
>>>>
>>>> This may seem a little tangential but the realm of Permaculture
Design has a suite of truisms on these topics, though they are
articulated in their unique language which can be a little hard to
translate sometimes. I think the permaculture community represent a
fertile laboratory for doing *some* experiments as implied by Glen's
questions.
>>>>
>>>> A good example which gestures toward the Chan work at least
morphologically is maybe worth a scan if not a full read here:
>>>>
>>>>
https://aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/zones-in-permaculture-design/
>>>>
>>>> Permaculture's 5 zone quantization doesn't preclude a recognition
of there being continuous gradients in many dimensions from a locus of
"technological closed-loop" (zone 0) and "biological closed loop"
(zone 5).
>>>>
>>>> There is a *lot* of talk in the literature about the interfaces
around zone 0, 1, 2 techno-structures creating localized ecozones that
harbor diversity (desired and undesired == vermin) which I think
provide some good anecdotal evidence about biodiversity in transition
zones and acute technological interfaces (e.g. roofs, walls, corners,
posts, fences, etc). Permaculture is a domain of recognizing and
exploiting "happy accidents".
>>>>
>>>> It is also worth noting the diversity spike that happens in
estuarial contexts...
>>>>
>>>> A more formal study of Urban/Architectural design with an eye to
*health* (human-centric view) is the domain of Biophilic Design
<https://www.terrapinbrightgreen.com/report/biophilia-healing-environments/>.
Nikos Salingaros is a hard-core Mathematician at UT-San Antonio who
addresses abstractions of Complexity
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Complexity> and
Pattern Languages <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language> as
well as Architecture and Urbanism. He also has some interesting
opinions <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Salingaros#Philosophy>
about post modernism as well as Dawkins Atheism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since then, they've presented (meso and macro) arguments that
justify their position. It does seem obvious that urban areas trend to
more adaptable animals like coyotes and raccoons and less so to, say,
deer. The bugs are more interesting. Meso guy found some articles that
show "species" diversity in urban areas is roughly the same as natural
areas. But phylogenetic diversity is clearly lower in urban areas.
That seems counter intuitive to me. It's a cool result.
>>>>>
>>>>> My main point when I originally expressed skepticism, though,
was about microbial diversity. Is it possible that bug-layer and
microbe-layer (including what lives in/on large animals like rats and
humans) diversity makes up for lower diversity in large-layers?
>>>>>
>>>>> I *feel* that projects like Chan's could help with this question
since it seems prohibitively expensive to sample and test enough
microbial populations of urban and wild areas, especially if we
include intra-animal populations. I'm just not sure *how* they could help.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/24/22 03:38, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>>>>> It’s funny; I know Bert.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of our colleagues played a role in bringing him out to work
at Google in Tokyo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A mathematician (Will Cavendish) who has part-time support at IAS
>>>>>> https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish
<https://www.ias.edu/scholars/will-cavendish>
>>>>>> is also interested in the mathematical dimensions of this,
though I have only a glancing exposure to how those two together are
trying to frame the problems. Because Bert has come at it more from
the ALife/engineering approach, and Will’s interests run more in the
direction of proving capabilities of broad classes of systems, often
interested in their aggregation as categories (and also about the
role of simulation as a replacement for proof in systems that produce
complicated enough state spaces), it should be a productive and
interesting collaboration. I don’t know how engaged others are in the
Google group on this specific project, because I am too far outside
that loop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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