*NST===>Not at all clear to me what psycho somatic means, unless it involves some sort of assignment of blame. If I, a diabetic eat a hot fudge Sunday and go into ketosis, is my coma psychosomatic? Does it matter that I did it as an unconscious protest against the idiocies of contemporary diabetes management? <===nst] *
No. No. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Oct 19, 2022, 9:44 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi, Dave, > > > > See Larding below > > > > Nick Thompson > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2022 2:05 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done > > Hi, Dave, > > > > Notice that in cashing out the honorable Dr. Green, you get yourself into > a rhetorical tangle. > > > > Nick Thompson > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > *From:* Friam [email protected] *On Behalf Of *Prof David West > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2022 2:05 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done > > > > Colloquially, "in your head" signifies that construct—the self, the > consciousness— that you do not accept as a real thing. > > > > *[NST===>well, the question dangling here is whether the person should be > blamed for it or not. It’s like that old childhood question: Is not > wanting to go to school going to be made better or worse by going to > school. Or, are other people going to get sick, if go to school. Not > clear how consciousness enters in. <===nst] * > > > > If one were to be charitable, one might interpret the sentence as "it is > not psychosomatic."*[NST===>Not at all clear to me what psycho somatic > means, unless it involves some sort of assignment of blame. If I, a > diabetic eat a hot fudge Sunday and go into ketosis, is my coma > psychosomatic? Does it matter that I did it as an unconscious protest > against the idiocies of contemporary diabetes management? <===nst] * > > Reason being pain results in signals in both the body > > *[NST===>Pain results in signals… I thought pain WAS the signals. Or > even, the result of the signals. So pain causes pain. Uhuh. I get that. > Nothing more satisfying than a good tautology. <===nst] * > > and the brain, so it is a phenomenon in the 'physical world of electrons > and neurons' as well as the 'physical world of the flesh'. > > > > But why be charitable?*[NST===>To use Glen’s language, I don’t think the > idea that “pain **è** pain signals in the body **è** pain signals in the > brain causes pain” **can be rescued by charity. Nor do I think the idea > that the brain is not in the body is capable of rescue.* > > > > *I am an anarchist with respect to consciousness talk; we need to burn the > whole fucker down. See below from a dialogue eric and I wrote years ago. > Eric asks the questions:* > > > > *Nick <===nst] * > > > > So a robot could be made that would feel pain? > > > > Well, you are cheating a bit, because you are asking me to participate in > a word game I have already disavowed, the game in which pain is something > inside my brain that I use my pain-feelers to palpate (contra Natsoulas, > this volume). To me, pain is an emergency organization of my behavior in > which I deploy physical and social defenses of various sorts. You show me a > robot that is part of a society of robots, becomes frantic when you break > some part of it, calls upon its fellow robots to assist, etc., I will be > happy to admit that it is “paining”. > > > > On your account, non-social animals don’t feel pain? > > > > Well, not the same sort of pain. Any creature that struggles when you do > something to it is “paining” in some sense. But animals that have the > potential to summon help seem to pain in a different way. > > > > But Nick, while “paining” sounds nice in an academic paper, it is just > silly otherwise. The other day I felt quite nauseous after a meal. I am > interested in what it’s like to feel nauseous, and you cannot honestly > claim that you don’t know what feeling nauseous is like. Behavioral > correlates aren’t at issue, stop changing the subject. > > > > What is “being nauseous” like? It’s like being on a small boat in a choppy > sea, it’s like being in a world that is revolving when others see it as > stable, it’s like being grey in the face and turning away from the sights > and smells of food that others find attractive, it’s like having your head > in the toilet when others have theirs in the refrigerator. > > > > But you have brought us to the crux of the problem. Nobody has > ever been satisfied with my answers to these, “What is it like to be a > _______?” questions. “What is it like to be in pain? What is it like to be > a bat? What is it like to be Nick Thompson?” Notice how the grammar is > contorted. If you ask the question in its natural order, you begin to see a > path to an answer. “What is being Nick Thompson like?” “It’s like running > around like a chicken with its head cut off.” OK. I get that. I see me > doing that. You see me doing that. But most people won’t be satisfied with > that sort of answer, because it’s the same as the answer to the question, > “What do people like Nick Thompson do?” and therefore appears to convey no > information that is inherently private. To me, the question, “What is it > like to be X?”, has been fully answered when you have said where X-like > people can be found and what they will be doing there. However, I seem to > be pretty alone in that view. > > > > Dave wrote: Colloquially, "in your head" signifies that construct—the > self, the consciousness— that you do not accept as a real thing. > > > > If one were to be charitable, one might interpret the sentence as "it is > not psychosomatic." Reason being pain results in signals in both the body > and the brain, so it is a phenomenon in the 'physical world of electrons > and neurons' as well as the 'physical world of the flesh'. > > > > But why be charitable? > > > > davew > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022, at 12:44 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > A highly regarded pain expert, Dr. Carmen Green, talking about chronic > pain on the pod cast of an equally highly regarded neurosurgeon, Dr. > Sanjay Gupta: > > > > *“… pain is also perceived in the brain, so it’s not only in your head.”* > > > > Nick Thompson > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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