Excellent! Thanks. Robinson's words sound a little Chicken Little to me. But
the focus on _open_ is something I'm committed to. I still waffle about whether
the logic(s) of the universe are open-ended (by which I mean truly novel events
and structures can occur) or not (by which I mean, all seemingly new structures
were programmed in the whole time, which also implies things about the
universality of any singular logic). I want it to be open.
And the only way we can falsify my tendency to believe it is open is to find
evidence that it's closed, to reduce everything to a, one singular, GUT ...
and, as time goes by, I'm steadily being disabused of my beliefs in the
openness of anything. But even if everything's closed, there are sub-problems
therein, *interesting* ways in which it is closed that make it *seem* open.
Systems that might tolerate multiple types of closure, where some relations are
closed and others open. Etc. That's why logic(s) that tolerate inconsistency
are so cool (to me).
On 1/19/23 07:52, Prof David West wrote:
My optimism is tempered, and less than Pieters.
/"When we contemplate the shocking derangement of human affairs which now
prevails in most civilized countries, including our own, even the best minds are
puzzled and uncertain in their attempts to grasp the situation.The world seems to
demand a moral and economic regeneration which it is dangerous to postpone, but as
yet impossible to imagine, let alone direct./
/We have unprecedented conditions to deal with and novel adjustments to
make—there can be no doubt of that. We also have a great stock of scientific
knowledge unknown to our grandfathers with which to operate. So novel are the
conditions, so copious the knowledge, that we must undertake the arduous task
of reconsidering a great part of the opinions about man and his relations to
his fellow-men which have been handed down to us by previous generations who
lived in far other conditions and who possessed far less information about the
world and themselves./
*/We have, however, first to create an unprecedented attitude of mind to cope with
unprecedented conditions, and to utilize unprecedented knowledge. This is the
preliminary. and most difficult, step to be taken—far more difficult that one would
suspect who fails to realize that in order to take it we must overcome inveterate
natural tendencies and artificial habits of long standing. How are we to put
ourselves in a position to think of thiigs that we not only never though of before,
but are most reluctant to question? In short, how are we to rid ourselves of our
fond prejudices and _open our minds_?/*"
Those words are from someone few have heard of: James Harvey Robinson, from his
book /The Mind in the Making/ published, originally, in 1921. (republished in
2017 by Vigeo Press)
The optimism of Altman you quoted is, in my opinion, possible only if we can "open
our minds" and shed antiquated minds and counter-productive modes of thinking.
Robinson, by the way does not propose an alternative, per se, but does an excellent job
of baring the various kinds of thinking and their origins fro the "savage mind"
to the scientific revolution.
davew
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, at 4:17 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
*Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism.*
Yes, sadly the world is unequal and those at the bottom of the economic ladder
just don't get a good deal.
On the positive side, looking back at the history of mankind there is evidence
that it is now better to live than ever in the past for the large majority of
humankind. This is true even though it is the sad truth that it's very far from
perfect; human suffering is a reality, Glen's comment is sad but true.
The question of course is whether it will continue to go better?
It's just impossible to know the future. One person can believe it'll go better
in the future, another that it'll be worse, each with tons of good arguments.
I for one, embrace the optimism of Sam Altman, just for completeness I repeat
his quote and give the reference again.
"Intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most things we
want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically different, and
can be amazingly better."
Taken from
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms
<https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms>
:
In conclusion, yes I agree with Glen that there are sadly hidden elements to
all the techno-optimism. but this does not dampen my enthusiasm for the future
triggered by abundant intelligence and energy.
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 21:08, glen <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Sadly, there are some hidden elements to all that techno-optimism. E.g.
https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m
<https://nitter.cz/billyperrigo/status/1615682180201447425#m>
On 1/18/23 00:40, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> I totally agree that realizable behavior is what matters.
>
> The elephant in the room is whether AI (and robotics of course) will (not
to replace but to) be able to do better than humans in all respects, including
come up with creative solutions to not only the world's most pressing problems but
also small creative things like writing poems, and then to do the mental and
physical tasks required to provide goods and services to all in the world,
>
> Sam Altman said there are two things that will shape our future;
intelligence and energy. If we have real abundant intelligence and energy, the
world will be very different indeed.
>
> To quote Sam Altmen at
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms
<https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms>
<https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms
<https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/startups/intelligence-energy-sam-altmans-technology-predictions-for-2020s/articleshow/86088731.cms>>
:
>
> "intelligence and energy have been the fundamental limiters towards most
things we want. A future where these are not the limiting reagents will be radically
different, and can be amazingly better."
>
>
>
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 at 03:06, Marcus Daniels <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
> Definitions are all fine and good, but realizable behavior is what
matters. Analog computers will have imperfect behavior, and there will be
leakage between components. A large network of transistors or neurons are
sufficiently similar for my purposes. The unrolling would be inside a skull, so
somewhat isolated from interference.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 2:11 PM
> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] NickC channels DaveW
>
> I don't quite grok that. A crisp definition of recursion implies no interaction
with the outside world, right? If you can tolerate the ambiguity in that statement, the
artifacts laying about from an unrolled recursion might be seen and used by outsiders.
That's not to say a trespasser can't have some sophisticated intrusion technique. But
unrolled seems more "open" to family, friends, and the occasional acquaintance.
>
> On 1/17/23 13:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > I probably didn't pay enough attention to the thread some time ago
on serialization, but to me recursion is hard to distinguish from an unrolling of
recursion.
>
--
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