Our 2 year old granddaughter is at our place frequently. It's inconceivable that she could live independently.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, May 31, 2023, 8:13 AM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > Yeah, that was a great show. I suppose I can see "mostly independent" > humans at around 10 years ... maybe even down to 5, I guess. But 2? That > seems extreme. Of course, I'm ignorant of the anthropology. Maybe 2 year > olds used to be much more coordinated, perhaps taller, with a better > developed cortex? I thought there was a spike in pruning circa 4 years? I > suppose, just like height and other features, that pruning spike might move > around depending on environmental pressure. > > On 5/31/23 06:38, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > There's also "Hanna" (2011) and the series that followed. > > > >> On May 31, 2023, at 6:24 AM, glen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> What?!? The idea of a gaggle of toddlers running around hunting and > cooking, say, boar for supper is astounding. Even Children of the Corn were > older than 2. 8^D > >> > >>> On 5/31/23 06:19, Prof David West wrote: > >>> "the extended juvenile development of humans," is an artifact of > modern industrial society. For "de-domesticated humans" development to, > mostly, independent existence was only marginally longer than that of other > large mammals. Roughly two years for humans, 18 months for elephants and > bears and large cats,12 months for a host of other species. > >>> davew > >>>> On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 5:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > >>>> Eric's musing on the character of the saving remnant reminded me of > Ötzi, the Tyrolean ice mummy, as portrayed in > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film) < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)>. > >>>> > >>>> Some commentators note the western movie tropes, but when Ötzi gears > up to chase down the pillagers of his family settlement, he also straps on > the infant who was the sole survivor of the pillaging. Of course he drops > the kid off with the first available woman he meets. > >>>> > >>>> Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub>, the samurai with a baby > carriage. But as I remember, the cub became part of the lone wolf's > arsenal. > >>>> > >>>> So, when you posit a de-domesticated human, what happens to the > extended juvenile development of humans? Babies and toddlers are going to > remain domestic concerns no matter how much bourgeois mediocrity you eject > from your morality, no? And I guess burnt out philosophers with mental > health issues will be domestic issues, too, even if they were once supermen? > >>>> > >>>> -- rec -- > >>>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels < > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> "What do I think the saving remnant will be? I imagine people > who lost all the epigenetic marks associated with domestication, and took > on hormone profiles more like chimps. Or “born this way” to PTSD." > >>>> > >>>> In stories like Elysium, the saving remnant survives. Why > doesn't popular science fiction consider the future in which only Elysium > endures? We have lots of experience on earth making sure that > communities are partitioned by socioeconomic status. All of the saving > remnants I see around here are homeless or hovering near death due to use > of heroin and fentanyl. The deer, however, happily munch on my front yard > plants. > >>>> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film) < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Friam <[email protected] <mailto: > [email protected]>> On Behalf Of glen > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:27 AM > >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege > >>>> > >>>> "Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think > first-worlders like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even > be true for the first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by > a lot than a large extinction." > >>>> > >>>> IDK, man. Are wild animals different from us in any significant > way? Are they actually never lazy, never unvigilant, etc? Or, perhaps, is > the attribution of vigilance (and hence never unvigilance) an illusion born > of othering? A standard whipping post for me is this "Are you a cat person > or a dog person" cocktail party ice breaker. Admitting the false dichotomy, > dog people tend to think of cats as non-social, selfish, blahblah. Cat > people tend to think of dogs as slobbery, vapid, etc. It's complete > nonsense born of arbitrary delusions. > >>>> > >>>> But of course, there is something to be said of the built > environment. It would be difficult for a human reared in a city to navigate > the Mongolian desert. But is that difference any greater than plopping a > city dweller 13,000 years in the past? Are office or political games > significantly different from the "games" wild babies play under the > vigilant eye of their den mother? Yeah, I know. I'm putting too much weight > on "significant". Obviously, everything's different from everything else. > (I regret not being able to engage more with Jon's exploration of Deleuze.) > But my conservatism tells me that objective othering would rely solely on > coherent traits, fingers vs. claws, hair vs. fur, cortex or no cortex. A > human now would be insignificantly different from a human then. If the > apocalypse doesn't transform us into something other than human, whatever > is rebuilt will be strikingly similar to what we have now. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 5/28/23 11:29, David Eric Smith wrote: > >>>> > I’m not sure elitist, Steve, > >>>> > > >>>> > That’s one bad habit that I don’t think they have. > >>>> > > >>>> > More along the line, I suspect, of “out of ordinary people who > mostly get mowed down, here and there will be some pockets that started to > pay attention and got lucky enough to have time to make a culture of it, of > sorts” > >>>> > > >>>> > Wes Jackson likes the term “saving remnant”. > >>>> > > >>>> > I happen to be in Sweden just now, and it has me thinking about > sci-fi futures, ad also Nietzsche’s “last man” etc. > >>>> > > >>>> > Also on this theme is the very interesting SFI lecture “living > with distrust”, which signals things I have seen (Ernst Fehr?) and others > say about the Ache and Machiguenga and other groups. > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Take any wild animal, and contemplate just how _different_ they > are from us. Never lazy. Never un-vigilant. Or read Jonathan Shay’s > Achilles in Vietnam. > >>>> > > >>>> > Suppose all the people who remain have survived only because > they are that. Unwind not only the past 70 years of developed-world > tranquility, but the history of human domestication since at least the > younger dryas. Maybe a lot longer ago than that. > >>>> > > >>>> > What is it like to have your Time Machine and go spend a > weekend with those guys in their home? Jared Diamond would be jealous. > Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think > first-worlders like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even > be true for the first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by > a lot than a large extinction. > >>>> > > >>>> > I wish I had the imagination to be interesting. It would be > invigorating to read someone who could really imagine a different world, > and a different us, and take you there in some convincing way. > >>>> > > >>>> > Eric > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> >> On May 28, 2023, at 6:55 PM, Steve Smith <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Eric - > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Thanks for passing this link around here. I suspect most > here have the background to appreciate/parse this < insert Steve Martin's > "hear me now and believe me later" SNL skit> but maybe not an "affordance > to know" the more acute implications of it. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> One of the things I find (most) interesting in the RGND > rhetoric is > >>>> >> their (appropriate) invocation of Complex Systems ideas as > well as > >>>> >> the convergence of human consciousness (mostly from a > neuroscience > >>>> >> perspective) and the complex systems which are the > >>>> >> techno-social-economic systems that are our energo-materio > culture > >>>> >> which is the engine that is spinning the earth-systems out of > the > >>>> >> orbits they were in pre-anthropocene (150 or 15000 years?) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> I may be reading them wrong, but this feels like "yet another" > elitist trope, this time on (nanotech?) steroids: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> /In short, we think it’s probable that MTI civilization > will > >>>> >> collapse catastrophically but that pockets of people with a > rising > >>>> >> level of consciousness and awareness of our eco-predicament > will > >>>> >> survive and act as the seeders of a new world./// > >>>> >> > >>>> >> I particularly appreciated your pithy observation: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> /But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists > and the > >>>> >> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of > services, and > >>>> >> of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn > out to > >>>> >> be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not > carry on > >>>> >> the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win./ > >>>> >> > >>>> >> / > >>>> >> / > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Thanks to Sabine (as Cassandra) and Eric and Marcus for > raising this to my attention... queing it up to provide background for my > read lead me to her Collective Stupidity episode < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng>>. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> I am left wondering if/how LLMs reflect/relate to > Wisdom/Stupidity of Crowds? Seems like LLMs are literally the > encapsulation of collective knowledge. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Sabine's invocation of "Information Cascades" was interesting > in contrast with entrainment and canalization. Will LLMs in some way help > us avoid these short-circuits/shunts? Or aggravate them? > >>>> >> > >>>> >> - Steve > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On 5/28/23 2:46 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: > >>>> >>> This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t > heard. > >>>> >>> Bill Rees, whom you can find here: > >>>> >>> <d8f080_78c1ab7b00b045ff9bbc01a273b00173~mv2.jpg> > >>>> >>> Home | The REAL Green New Deal Project > >>>> >>> < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> > >>>> >>> > %2f&c=E,1,s4xLfGynLIjkrUt9NbN7gTjzG9OOoaJe64vBX3p4819H6jFz9AJSSe-qv9 > >>>> >>> yDN4qwXF8gSayAREexT0axFnHBthp_EmNYm91Bl5Edsist24GG&typo=1> > >>>> >>> realgnd.org <http://realgnd.org> > >>>> >>> < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> > >>>> >>> > %2f&c=E,1,mLU-zLi9KLRqdV1LCSsLf4xAqRPWhhLSvzK0ajNxs-Bl31f_tDo3AuTO8F > >>>> >>> > ftJArhBwcEpVAtKd58f8Nn8HWN8QWG-poN1K4CsHllfzctVyYuePFkCMo,&typo=1> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> > >>>> >>> > %2f&c=E,1,ui2uypSQ13uMOEz7hzM4YulUakJ2dduLZEW4fMauG5gh85fLSDmPC9mu3s > >>>> >>> > aCYT5TA1zSp3f4E7hrdi7Iu-Yxbt88L44PzeI9TxTtDQBN6mNsS-h87nJxhCE,&typo= > >>>> >>> 1> writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or > that > >>>> >>> this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a > need or not. I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us to > die (see the smiling grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in the pages), > but after a long life of writing Jeremiads and not seeing the world change > its ways, he seems so defeated by frustration that I read in him a deep and > now constitutive misanthropy. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> (btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to > Sabine > >>>> >>> Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the Dark. > >>>> >>> Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had never > noticed > >>>> >>> it.) > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new > technologies is “look, it will save so much labor we will all have leisure > to be creative while still having comfortable levels of consumption”, when > what actually happens is classic Marx: the few who can enclose the new > services, either because they are exclusive or just through > market-gravitational effects, now own an even larger sector of all income, > and the expanding remnant is made increasingly desperate. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and > the GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and > of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to be, > leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on the guilt > of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe > thereby wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced autocomplete > services might only be a transient while our current stock of primary > knowledge is “enough” and “not fully mined”. Maybe all the inefficient > activity of ordinary people is somehow a diffuse source that actually > expands the primary base. Certainly my impression of ecological > organizations is that, below any small population of charismatic megafauna, > there is a whole pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of > nitrogen-fixer bacteria. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by > physical, mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be possible > that we just haven’t ever seen before. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> Eric > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels < > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> Looking at the recent rapid release of open source LLM > systems like Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on than > titans like Microsoft, and Google battling it out with giant closed > systems. These are human know-how crystalized into open-source > deliverables. Why not share knowledge representations in this way? > Consider the cost and time that goes into medical or legal training. > Sure the energy requirements of digital systems are high, but so are the > energy expenditures of a planet full of humans. > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- > >>>> >>>> *From:*Friam <[email protected] <mailto: > [email protected]>> on behalf of Steve Smith > >>>> >>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> *Sent:*Friday, > May 26, 2023 2:06 PM > >>>> >>>> *To:*[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>< > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > >>>> >>>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>>> My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they > think babies are disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any case, > what does a shortage of babies have to do with AI? > >>>> >>>> Babies *are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies, > kitties, and garden-soil from the right (wrong) perspective! > >>>> >>>> Maybe the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord > over" ? > >>>> >>>> I think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't look > for Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just speculating that maybe he's > doing a mild echo of Musk's idea that a collapsing (first) world population > is somehow a *bigger* existential threat? > >>>> >>>> With my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI > will help me (well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely like who I once > thought I was or wanted to be) solve micro-techonomic problems like the > ones that lead to Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and higher > density/faster-charge EV batteries, and higher density/dynamic range > pixel-displays, and neural lace to wire (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and > microbes that can convert moon/mars-dust to Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc. > >>>> >>>> My PsychoHistory hatted self (Asimov - Foundation < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional) < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)>>and > thenon-fictional variant < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior > < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior>.>) > is inclined to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems", the ones > nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian, too obtuse, too "wycked" (In > Complexity Science jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive for most (any?) > human or group of humans to grasp. > >>>> >>>> My Ned Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking > more down the rabbit holes of worst-case scenarios where all the arrogant, > narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the world (starting at the top with those whose > names start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and staggering down the > hierarchy of potency and scope to most of us here most of the time) think > they "know what is best" and put their resources to using the AI lever to > "make it so"... > >>>> >>>> Even (especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they > made ME King" (or to the point, if *I* was the/wormtongue/in the AI > Overlord's ear) that I would "make the world safe and happy for everyone, > ever after with no unintended consequences or unpleasant side effects". > >>>> >>>> One *might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most > grounded, thoughtful, gentle think-tanks (e.g. in a Tibetan Lamasary or > the "Club of Rome" or SIPRI or CESR or the Justice League of America or the > people who task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be practicing their > AI-whispering skills right now. Maybe tasking Marcus' Quantum Computer with > "the hard problem of universal consciousness"? > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> An up-to-date version of Asimov's9 Billion Names of God < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>>? > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> --- > >>>> >>>>> Frank C. Wimberly > >>>> >>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > >>>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> 505 670-9918 > >>>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote: > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune > today. It's headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what > will save it from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says". The > headline is accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric. Nice try, > Google, but you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole. > >>>> >>>>> > >>>> >>>>> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the > rationality of disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years > ago in Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is > available in English translation and as an ebook onoverdrive.com < > http://onoverdrive.com> < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1 > < > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1>>at > your local library. The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to > check on his mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval > monastery high in the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with > stories while awaiting the resolution of the first war > >>>> of entertainment. Lots of stories about themselves and their > friends and acquaintances. > >>>> >>>>> > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
