1) seeking common understanding.
2) sharing anecdotes about cats and dogs, some of which are named.
2a) anecdotes are themed: X just [some observable act] and that makes me
believe X "loves" Y.
2a1) anecdotes are themed: if X loves Y, it makes me be believe X is
aware/conscious of Y.
2b) anecdotes are themed: sometimes Y is X and that makes me believe X/Y
loves itself.
2b1) anecdotes are themed: if X/Y loves itself, it makes be believe that
X/Y must be aware/conscious of self.
2b2) anecdotes are themed: X just [some observable act] and that makes me
believe X is self-aware/self-conscious
3) sharing anecdotes about humans, all of which are named.
3a) skip the love
3b) anecdotes are themed: A just [some observable act] and that makes me
believe that A is aware/conscious of B.
3b1) all of the email exchanges are examples of this whether or not the
email contains an anecdote.
3c) anecdotes are themed: A just [some observable act] and that makes me
believe that A is self-aware/self-conscious.
4) some anecdotes have been shared involving entities other than domestic
mammals, e.g., goldfish, octopi, and dolphins, suggesting that some in the
conversation are willing to cede awareness/consciousness and
self-awareness/self-consciousness to other species.
Assuming the above is reasonably accurate:
- have we reached a common understanding, among the discussants, that
domestic mammals, human beings, and probably a few other species are loving,
aware/conscious, and self-aware/self-conscious?
- If so, has our effort resulted in something more than making an implicit
common understanding, explicit?
- If so, is there "value" in that result. (I would say yes; but 'baby value'
because the conversation was limited to 'baby steps'.)
- Whence from here?
- I assume the 'procedure' would continue as sharing anecdotes; but what
themes?
- More difficult question, has our effort provided us with any insights as
to the nature of awareness/consciousness, self or otherwise, or is the
'obtaining of insights' even a goal?
davew
On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 4:35 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> Thanks, Dave,
> I tried to set two ground rules, here: One is simply that we try to find
> ways to a common understanding. I recognize that the best way to get
> there might be to go into battle together, or drink a lot whiskey together,
> or drop acid together, but my puritan upbringing forbids those methods. So,
> the second is that we do it by sharing concrete experiences, rather than airy
> references to philosophers or links to voluminous publications, or, in my
> case, vast insertions of my published works. .
>
> So, if you have a better procedure for meeting those rules lets try them.
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 1:15 PM Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote:
>> __
>> Nick,
>>
>> apologize for immediate last post being on this thread - it is indeed
>> veering into metaphysics (oh boy fun).
>>
>>
>> However, what was said, was indeed anecdotes about my 'experiences'
>> vis-a-vis consciousness. Are such impermissible in this conversation? If Dr.
>> Lilly were to join us share anecdotes about dolphin consciousness or, heaven
>> forbid, about dropping acid with the dolphins, would they be useful for our
>> conversation?
>>
>> I am totally sympathetic with the program here, (and do not see it as a
>> game, zero-sum or otherwise) but often feel as if I am constrained by
>> invisible rules. May I share stories only about cats, Dusty, and Jackson?
>> Perhaps the answer is implicit in your baby-steps dictum: yes, for now, with
>> anecdotes about dragons and unicorns deferred until we have obtained some
>> degree of consensus as to domestic mammals?
>>
>> When we do eventually turn to "self-consciousness" I have many anecdotes,
>> but fear they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or idiosyncratic
>> (Holy Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind impossible.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>> Hi, everybody. We are veering into meta again. Ugh.
>>>
>>> Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to
>>> converse productively about consciousness. A productive conversation, for
>>> Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of
>>> disagreement. Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that
>>> anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds.
>>> Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit. I tell an
>>> anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious,
>>> than other anecdotes must be relevant. You chime in with your anecdotes.
>>> We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious.
>>> With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious".
>>>
>>> Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether agreement
>>> is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality. I hear Dave
>>> saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I prefer my
>>> Holy Individuality." But in the end, I don't think there is anyway to
>>> play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a common
>>> outcome.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> __
>>>> I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not
>>>> get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated
>>>> starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Nick: *"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness
>>>> on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am
>>>> trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience."*
>>>>
>>>> I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about
>>>> self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the
>>>> conclusion that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously
>>>> there is some marginal overlap)*
>>>>
>>>> Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to
>>>> publicly reveal about them*S*elves.
>>>>
>>>> davew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:
>>>> > It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual
>>>> > interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to
>>>> > self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat
>>>> > clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass
>>>> > burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute
>>>> > before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order
>>>> > consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order
>>>> > consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he
>>>> > decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink
>>>> > out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness
>>>> > for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of
>>>> > interoception.
>>>> >
>>>> > In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only
>>>> > indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a
>>>> > full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid
>>>> > individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable
>>>> > of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies
>>>> > explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.
>>>> >
>>>> > [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual
>>>> > interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet
>>>> > confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe
>>>> > for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the
>>>> > way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across
>>>> > simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about
>>>> > this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which
>>>> > means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.
>>>> >
>>>> > [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto
>>>> > what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in
>>>> > anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay
>>>> > inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic
>>>> > weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or
>>>> > those outside the house.
>>>> >
>>>> > On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>>>> >> All,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be.
>>>> >> Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these
>>>> >> animals we are in interaction with are conscious.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do
>>>> >> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want
>>>> >> to resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the
>>>> >> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an
>>>> >> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think
>>>> >> what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>>> >
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
>>> Clark University
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>>
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>
> --
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology
> Clark University
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