glen: " ... it's fundamental to biology for organisms to seek ecstatic states ... the oneness of the universe, the dissolution of the self, etc."
There is a lot of evidence that this is true, and perhaps it is a behavior that could contribute to the, apparently, abandoned discussion of consciousness. It a creature actively seeks to get high, it is conscious. elephants do it, birds do it, I do it, you? davew On Tue, Aug 13, 2024, at 12:07 PM, glen wrote: > Dude. OK. The Angels becoming Demons isn't a duality, at least in my > intent raising it, here. Our want to, desire for, *fascination* is both > good and bad and good and bad aren't duals. Regarless, even if you want > them to be duals, that's fine. The point I'm making is that this trait > of ours, the desire to be fascinated/ecstatic is hallmark/canonical. > Only those of us hopped up on mediTation or drugs that blunt emotions > exhibit a reduced desire for things like profundity, awe, ecstasy, etc. > It reminds me of the book "To Engineer is Human" ... but I'd generalize > and say that it's fundamental to biology for organisms to seek ecstatic > states ... the oneness of the universe, the dissolution of the self, > etc. > > But this desire for beauty, to escape our selves, IS the problem as > much as it is the solution. That's what I mean by Angels and Demons. > Also "bullshit" is fairly well defined. It's an artificial/false > construct constructed without regard to the Truth (where "Truth" might > mean any number of shared values, accuracy, usefulness, etc.). This > means that bullshit can accidentally be true, but never True. > > I don't know how much time y'all spend talking to, say, QAnon believers > ... or back in the day those who yapped about Bilderberg, the > Illuminati, speaking in tongues, or whatever. But, for me, the > enthusiasm and ecstasy they exuded was infectious. Even as several of > my homunculi knew it was bullshit-begetting, it was downright fun; not > so harmless as the mob behavior of a rave, but still fun. I sought > (still do to some extent) it relentlessly. It's a miracle of > happenstance (or genetics?) I was never engulfed by it. I still do, at > least when it's not merely lazy. In order for me to feel it, there has > to be some *deep* bullshit ... you have to be able to get lost in the > bullshit. If you hit clay or sand in the first hour or so, then it's > just not that beautiful ... It has to be like String Theory deep. Now > that's far out, man. > > > On 8/13/24 09:19, steve smith wrote: >> Ideaphoria as part of an annealing schedule perhaps? >> >> >> A possibly self-referential example of what we are speaking of follows, as >> triggered by the topic and substance itself: >> >> On he angel-demon duality... >> >> Escher's famous hyperbolic tesselation on the same subject reminds me a bit >> of rayleigh-bernard convection cells? I haven't seen (but may have >> imagined?) the kind of convection/involution patterns we see in the classic >> demonstrations in the context of the churn of good vs evil, and the the >> foreground/background exchange? >> >> As Dennis Miller used to smirk at the beginning of his "don't let me get off >> on a rant here"... >> >> I'm honestly trying to explore this "riff" as an example of what I think you >> are speaking of? We were talking about the generality of "profundity as a >> breeding ground/enabler/masker" for "bullshit" (not precisely defined, but >> we probably all share an intuition of the 'know it when i see it' style?). >> >> Your mentioning of the Angel-Demon duality triggered in my (too near the >> edge of chaos?) fecund (fertile/feral?) mind and Escher's image overlayed >> with R-B convection cells roiling (my first experience was in metallic model >> airplane paints when disturbed and left open to evaporate? would roil until >> the metal particles settled to the bottom?). Without trying (but perhaps >> being compelled by an inner nature or drive, possibly what you refer to as >> the "orgasmic feeling" of "paradox or sophism") I found myself tangenting >> (as explored above) on the Angel-Demon implications of good/evil and the way >> one might be the fuel for the other and vice-versa. >> >> Having veered from the original question of Telic and perhaps Teleonomic >> (applied recursively to the RB-convection phenomenon) I would sit and stare >> (inadvertantly huffing the volatiles?) at the roiling cells in the >> model-airplane paint with a fascination as to whether there was intention or >> goal or purpose in that activity? I did not know much of any of the >> technical details of these things and while I had been instructed by elders >> in no uncertain terms not to impute either perpetual motion nor animism into >> such things, it was hard not to be deeply fascinated by said roiling. I >> don't know that I as the R-B cells in Escher's image the first time I saw >> it, but probably not long afterwards. >> >> This is the type of tangent I often delete, understanding it might well be >> taken to be deliberate bullshit generation (disguised as profundity)? My >> threshold for <delete before sending> varies. I haven't been on any pain >> meds beyond acetominophen since my (first) hip replacement a week ago, but >> the strange euphoria residue from the dissociative sedative (ketamine?) used >> during the extremely precise/surgical yet nevertheless invasive surgery, and >> the whole new suite of pains emanating from the hips and the introspective >> consequences are quite mind-bending. As we know, I don't need this kind of >> (mild?) altered state to wax "profound", but it does change it qualitatively >> (from the inside) a bit... >> >> On 8/13/24 9:05 AM, glen wrote: >>> It's reasonable to ask what proportion of profundity is a cover for >>> something versus a marker for something. I still tend to give people the >>> benefit of the doubt. So when I see either something that seems profound >>> (to me) or others saying or acting as if something's profound, it's a >>> marker for my or their confusion, respectively. While it may be true that >>> there are grifters out there who sow profundity, purposefully, in order to >>> mask their rational plans, that sounds conspiritorial to me. A good edge >>> case might be Elizabeth Holmes. To what extent did she know her claims were >>> bullshit? Or to what extent did she convince herself that her bullshit was >>> true/useful? >>> >>> Regardless of the proportions, the grifters don't breed bullshit so much. >>> They prop it up artificially. Bullshit begetting more bullshit (i.e. >>> breeding) has another home. I grant that it may not be profundity, >>> directly. Maybe it's the confusion underlying the profundity. But the >>> reason I think it's more the profundity is because the people I see who are >>> most guilty of it are attracted by the "awe" or the "beauty" of some thing. >>> They *want* to get stoned on some aesthetic, whatever it is ... carried >>> away, ecstatic, blissful, etc. Like a paradox or sophism, there's a kind of >>> orgasmic feeling to profound things ... "like. whoa, man." >>> >>> And *that's* the breeding ground, where Angels become Demons. >>> >>> On 8/8/24 11:03, steve smith wrote: >>>> >>>>> Maybe. I'm not convinced. Profundity is THE breeding ground for bullshit. >>>> I'm more inclined (in the context of my own profundity or perhaps more >>>> aptly prolificness or prolixity) to suggest that it is more of a mask (and >>>> therefore enabler?) of bullshit than a breeding ground. Could be a fine >>>> hair I suppose. >>> > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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