Just for fun— let's differentiate 'free will' from 'Free Will'. Using the Vedi/Buddhist concepts of "attached" and "non-attached" action to illustrate. A person who acts based on desire and the notion that what they do has an effect on gratifying that desire, exhibits "attached" action. But that is illusion, Maya, and not only fails, but brings about karma and misery. If one is sufficiently enlightened, they are 'omniscient" and the "correct" action in any circumstance is revealed to them and they can take that action without accruing karma and not suffering pain.
In neither case can the action be considered an exercise of 'free will'. To illustrate 'Free Will' I use a concept from the religion in which I was raised. In that religion there is no such thing as "sin;" merely actions with consequences - like jumping off a cliff (action) falling and maybe breaking a leg (consequence). You can acquire knowledge and discern what actions have what consequences and conform your behavior appropriately, somewhat analogous to Vedic/Buddhist enlightenment. Again, no 'free will'. However, there is one action a person can take that will get you exiled to "Hell." You can become a "Son of Perdition." But, you must have a perfect knowledge of God's plan and then reject it—think Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost. Such an act would, to me, seem as if it was 'Free Will'. davew On Mon, Jun 9, 2025, at 1:56 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > And it all makes perfect sense provided the measurer is also deterministic. > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Monday, June 9, 2025 11:44 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Free will—ghost in the machine or just clever wiring? > > I'll let George answer: > EPR refers to the *Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox*, a 1935 thought > experiment by Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen. It challenges the completeness > of quantum mechanics by showing that, under its rules, two particles can > become *entangled*—so that measuring one instantly affects the other, no > matter how far apart they are. > > Einstein called this "spooky action at a distance" and believed it implied > quantum mechanics was incomplete, suggesting the existence of hidden > variables that would restore locality and determinism. > > EPR is foundational to debates about quantum nonlocality and played a key > role in later developments like Bell's theorem and quantum information theory. > > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 20:29, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What is "EPR"? What is the attraction to acronyms about? >> >> --- >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> 505 670-9918 >> Santa Fe, NM >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 8, 2025, 11:38 PM Pieter Steenekamp <piet...@randcontrols.co.za> >> wrote: >>> Seth Lloyd’s Turing test for free will >>> (https://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/lloyd/Turing_Test.pdf) >>> is to consciousness what EPR was to quantum physics: a challenge to the >>> theory's completeness. EPR said quantum weirdness must hide something >>> deeper; Bell said “let's test that”—and nature replied, “nope, it’s weird >>> all the way down.” Nobel Prize, case closed. >>> >>> Lloyd asks: can we prove the mind is just machinery? His test says: build a >>> machine that behaves indistinguishably from a human and believes it has >>> free will. If you succeed—great. But failure proves nothing. >>> >>> Unlike Bell’s inequality, this test can only confirm, never deny. No >>> ghost-busting here. >>> >>> Until then? It’s speculation. The Standard Model explains almost >>> everything—except the quantum gremlins and how observation messes things >>> up. So maybe the mind still has an ace up its sleeve. Or a soul. Or a bug >>> in the code. >>> >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >>> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > *Attachments:* > • smime.p7s
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