Neat! On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 8:25 PM Pieter Steenekamp <[email protected]> wrote:
> Nick, > You pretty much nailed it. > But… maybe only 99.99% nailed it 😉 > > You said: > > "If you put a bunch of energy into a system by heating, you can NOT > recover all of that energy as work." > > In the real world, you're absolutely right. But in theoretical physics > land — where unicorns wear lab coats — it’s actually possible to recover > all of that energy. > > Here’s the trick: > If you have a heat source at some random temperature and a perfect heat > sink at absolute zero, then yes — you can get back all the energy as work. > But as the temperature of the heat sink goes up, your ability to recover > energy goes down. > If the sink is nearly as hot as the source? You get next to nothing. > Welcome to entropy. > > Now let’s imagine a silly little thought experiment: > > You’ve got Earth spinning around the sun, heating up during the day, > cooling at night. > > But imagine night-time cools the whole planet to absolute zero. (Yes, the > kind of cold that scares even penguins.) > > You also have a magic cylinder that you can open, close, and isolate > perfectly. > > Here's what you do: > > At night, open the cylinder and let any warm air out. Let in some of that > chilly absolute-zero air. Lock the piston in place. > > Close the vents (but don’t insulate yet) and wait for sunrise. > > As the day warms up, the air in the cylinder heats up and pressure builds. > > Once it’s as hot as it’s going to get — wrap it up in a warm, fuzzy > thermal blanket (okay, maybe not fuzzy) and seal it off completely. > > Now wait until the next freezing midnight, when Earth is back at absolute > zero. > > Unlock the piston and let the expanding gas do work as it pushes outward. > > Voilà! In this perfect little imaginary world, you've recovered all the > heat energy as mechanical energy. > > The real world never works quite this neatly — but that gap between theory > and reality? That’s where entropy sneaks in and steals your lunch. > > On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 at 23:42, Sarbajit Roy <[email protected]> wrote: > >> As I am primarily a Mechanical Engineer, who learnt The >> Uncertainty Principle in Sem 1, and Thermodynamics 101 in Sem 2, I couldn't >> then, nor, now reconcile Boltzmann's >> S = k.lnΩ >> to all that statistical Omega fuzzy stuff and so stick to the classical >> theory which ignores micro/macrostates, and I've not had issues through my >> ignorance.. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 4, 2025 at 3:00 AM Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Sarbajit, >>> >>> George and I have been working on a way of understanding this >>> asymmetry which is kinda neat. Here is George's summary of our >>> conversation. The gist of it is that while you can bring chambers to the >>> same temperature by heating and compressing, they are in different >>> macrostates because aside effect of compression is an increase in density >>> which heating does not produce. >>> See: >>> https://chatgpt.com/canvas/shared/6865db6493e88191a9023926478b3c01 >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 4:08 PM Sarbajit Roy <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> It has been a very long time (too long) since I studied the 2nd law or >>>> Shannon. It's all very veiled and foggy just now, however, I have often >>>> wondered if Entropy is fundamentally about ignorance, correlations, or >>>> something deeper? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 11:47 PM Nicholas Thompson < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Long Suffering Friamers >>>>> >>>>> I think I have now managed to come up with a macrostate statement of a >>>>> phenomenon that requires entropy for its understanding. It parallels >>>>> Lincoln's aphorism about fooling all of the people. >>>>> >>>>> *Assuming friction free and quasistatic motion and total insulation >>>>> where appropriate:* >>>>> >>>>> *If you put a bunch of energy into a system by working on it,**you >>>>> can recover all that energy as work.* >>>>> >>>>> *If you put a bunch of energy into a system by heating it,**you can >>>>> recover all that energy as heating,* >>>>> >>>>> *If you put a bunch of energy into a system by working on it,** you >>>>> can recover all that energy as heating.* >>>>> >>>>> *But if you put a bunch of energy into a system by heating, you can >>>>> NOT recover all of that energy as work. * >>>>> >>>>> I think this is the asymmetry that requires the invention of entropy. >>>>> >>>>> Am I finally getting my Dux in a row? >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>> Clark University >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson >>>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. >>>>> --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> [email protected] >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson >>> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. >>> / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
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