I agree. But the architecture of humans and LLMs are (very) different - and I
don't only mean software/math/info architecture, I also mean things like vN
machines and data centers. I would argue that our complicated
[intero|extero]ceptive mixing system is ... like ... WAY more robust than
what's happening with LLMs. So my prediction is that this type will fall away
and give ground to more organic BCI-style integration. The only questions are
how fast, market impact, class warfare, etc.
On 7/25/25 10:01 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
My hunch is that all the things some people think are special about people are
not special. Humans too are stochastic parrots. They have some habits and
tools that help them to reason. Thus, better stochastic parrots will be more
intelligent. Generative learning (e.g. hallucination) and reinforcement
learning (e.g. correction) is all there is.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of glen
<[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, July 25, 2025 9:53 AM
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] vibe complexity
OK fine, damnit. If we take Eric's emergentist position seriously, we'll have to talk
about the lasting effect of these language machines. First let me butcher the emergentist
position by describing it as "stable linguistic structures emerge out of the
immanent ontology such that they play the role of primary lower order subjects/agents,
causing - or at least providing critical cut points in the causal network - ontological
effects".
We can form a (false) dichotomy. On one side, we have Marcus and Pieter (and
prolly others) who might claim these linguistic structures (e.g. ChatGPT) are
not merely stable but transformative. They'll be (mostly) forever ensconced and
built upon part of society.
On the other side, you have me claiming that these structures are merely more,
and not particularly interesting, examples of the same sort of extended mind
tools we've been creating, sharing, and dissolving throughout our whole time
here on earth (including the rest of the apes). [⛧]
Reality's somewhere in between, of course. But where? Will it be more like the
typical hype cycle and there'll be a bit of a burst/correction as the LLMs
plateau? Or will it be more like cell phones that blossom and fill every nook
and cranny?
[⛧] I don't really hold this position. My actual stance is that we're too
ignorant of the lifecycle of these emergent structures, both social and
intraorganism, to say anything confidently about their stability. We need more
measurement, less pontificating. But I'll sacrifice myself on the alter of
dialectics for this conversation.
On 7/25/25 8:02 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
It seems we are the precipice of superintelligence and people are still talking
about credit assignment among humans. All of that becomes moot. Soon
enough it would become irrelevant who controls the AI because the AI would find
a way to manage those people.
Marcus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Friam <[email protected]> on behalf of glen
<[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, July 25, 2025 6:19 AM
*To:* [email protected] <[email protected]>
*Subject:* [FRIAM] vibe complexity (was: George on "Symmetry breaking")
Angela with another home run rant:
vibe physics
https://youtu.be/TMoz3gSXBcY?si=H4pxxjXioR25XtxN
<https://youtu.be/TMoz3gSXBcY?si=H4pxxjXioR25XtxN>
<https://youtu.be/TMoz3gSXBcY?si=H4pxxjXioR25XtxN
<https://youtu.be/TMoz3gSXBcY?si=H4pxxjXioR25XtxN>>
The best part is ~26:40. Whisper transcribed it without punctuation, which
makes it interesting ... like trying to read it out real fast, stream of
consciousness style. Angela's delivery is better. But I like this too.
"suddenly in their imaginations but not in reality they have all the same
skills that all the people who worked so hard to train so hard to do the things and
all they need to do is just have the right prompts the skills are at the tip of
their fingertips oh my goodness they can be a famous theoretical physicist and they
don't even have to learn calculus they just have to vibe physics and pull the llm
like a donkey to get to the edge of what's known and do they need the ability to
check their answers no they did it and then you know after they've done this and
they've presented it to people people will just be like well no that's not art i
don't want to look at that no that's not a physics paper just because like
technically it looks like a physics paper in classic crackpot fashion they are angry
they are angry that you are not respecting them and the way they think they deserve
to be respected because even though they did not attain the skills through the
traditional methods
suddenly they have them because they're really good at prompting the donkey to the
edge of physics something interesting"
I mean, I'm not immune. I learned about
Isomap<https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.290.5500.2319
<https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.290.5500.2319
<https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.290.5500.2319>>> the other day. So I
asked Claude to show me a few example uses for both the python and R libraries. I got some decent
code back. Do I understand it any better? No. But I can better simulate someone who *does*
understand! 8^D
And to hammer it all home, even though we *know* for a fact stories like the
Granbury one won't impact people's wanton use of LLMs (or cryptocurrency). Who
cares about pollution when you're vibing with your chatbox?
I Live 500 Feet From A Bitcoin Mine. My Life Is Hell.
https://youtu.be/m7_WDzPyoqU?si=7s-Lavs-CJcORrz5
<https://youtu.be/m7_WDzPyoqU?si=7s-Lavs-CJcORrz5>
<https://youtu.be/m7_WDzPyoqU?si=7s-Lavs-CJcORrz5
<https://youtu.be/m7_WDzPyoqU?si=7s-Lavs-CJcORrz5>>
https://earthjustice.org/press/2024/granbury-residents-sue-local-bitcoin-mine-over-health-threatening-noise-pollution
<https://earthjustice.org/press/2024/granbury-residents-sue-local-bitcoin-mine-over-health-threatening-noise-pollution>
<https://earthjustice.org/press/2024/granbury-residents-sue-local-bitcoin-mine-over-health-threatening-noise-pollution
<https://earthjustice.org/press/2024/granbury-residents-sue-local-bitcoin-mine-over-health-threatening-noise-pollution>>
On 7/24/25 1:23 AM, Santafe wrote:
I did want to call one thing out, though;
On Jul 24, 2025, at 8:54, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
/*NICK ASKS: I have argued with my complexity colleagues that their use of the
term is extremely unfortunate and that they ought to use the term structure
formation instead. Can you go up and down both sides of that argument?*/
I believe that parses as: I don’t understand what you mean, so I take it that
you probably don’t actually mean something. And therefore my response to what
you are saying is an improvement on what you are saying.
Very human impulse, but I think an impulse that one often regrets not fighting
off. Since I commit this error about once a day, it is never far from my mind.
Eric
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