Hi, Glen, As usual, I have launched myself into alien territory without a pass port. I cannot follow the analysis stuff, but allow me to comment on objectivity. I dont think it has anything to do with physiiological correlates-=- that's just icing on the cake. Do you get migraine auras? Lets imagine for a moment that migraine auras had absolutely no physiological correlates. How would we go about doing science on them? Or are they a subjective phenomenon. That would be odd because already we seem to be talking about them. they seem to be on the face, intersubjective. I wonder what the difference is between intersubjective and objective?
Nick Nick On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:45 PM glen <[email protected]> wrote: > I haven't read the New Yorker article. But the category seems hopelessly > fraught. Even the 2 "objective" measures I'm aware of (pupil response and > binocular rivalry) are intertwined with the body. I'm reminded of "motor > imagery", where imagining some physical action causes similar patterns to > performing that action, and so-called mirror neuron[al activation]. > > But we've been here before, right? What does it mean to "do math"? Is the > outfielder "doing math" when she catches a fly ball? I mean, we know > missile interceptors are "doing math" ... maybe. Is a Kalman filter > executing in the on board computer a "mental image". Can one understand > quantum mechanics without doing the math? Etc. > > But I'm attracted to the invocation of analysis. My prof, which I managed > to retain during all 3 of Anal I, II, & III, was a fan of priming. He'd > *draw* graduate level concepts on the chalkboard before class, then really > quickly run through all the jargon as if we understood whatever he was > yappin' about. Then he'd callously erase the art and get on with what we > were "supposed" to be learning. Dude was an artist. Full stop. > > > On 11/6/25 3:24 PM, Santafe wrote: > > I see; thanks Nick, > > > > I am happy the expected categories fell apart. But there have been > occasions when I went looking for categories something like these on my own > too. > > > > In college (which I hit about like a bird flying into a window), as > sophomores we were taught algebra by Mike Aschbacher, one of the great > algebraists of the just-past generation. A man who never brought notes, > wrote every proof spontaneously, and could write on a chalkboard at the > same speed as he talked. > > > > A friend and I — both of us just getting pounded into the ground — > decided that there were geometric thinkers, who exapted visual thinking, > and algebraic thinkers, who exapted syntactic thinking. Aschbacher being > the most syntactically superhuman being we had ever encountered. And we > decided we were both “algebraically impaired”. > > > > In contrast, analysis was straightforward, and always seemed to me to > have a somewhat visual angle to it, and algebraic topology and differential > geometry were even better. Although I never tried anything hard in those > fields, like proving things about more than 3 dimensions. So not sure how > much visual/geometric skill I have beyond the baseline for primates. > > > > I have continued to wonder where one should go to characterize > “elementary” or “primitive” modalities of cognition, and how to take them > to assemble into the kinds of synthetic things we call “skills”. Marc > Hauser once gave some very compelling talks along these lines for > mathematical reasoning. But since he was found fabricating data some years > later, I don’t know how much of the earlier stuff I should continue to find > compelling. It might not have been tainted at all; but I am not in the > field. > > > > It’s a nice topic. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Nov 6, 2025, at 15:59, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> I’m sorry for the misprint. The correct term is aphantasia. > >> > >> It took 15 minutes with a handful of people at thuam for the > categories to break down horribly. My prediction was based on no great > insite. I had divided the world up into picture people and word people > assume that our word. I claimed no wisdom here, only prejudices I seem to > be a.-side myself > >> Sent from my Dumb Phone > >> > >> On Nov 6, 2025, at 1:02 PM, Prof David West <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> Yes, please, what Eric asked. > >> > >> I would expect most people on this list to tend towards the "hyper," > not the "apha." > >> > >> davew > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 6, 2025, at 10:38 AM, Santafe wrote: > >>> That’s interesting, Nick (on limited time here, but just for a while) > >>> > >>>> On Nov 6, 2025, at 11:19, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Given the work that many of you do, many of you are candidates for > "aphatasia" > >>> > >>> Can you say more about why you expect a correlation? This is not an > >>> association that would ever have occurred to me. > >>> > >>> Eric > -- > ¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ > ὅτε oi μὲν ἄλλοι κύνες τοὺς ἐχϑροὺς δάκνουσιν, ἐγὰ δὲ τοὺς φίλους, ἵνα > σώσω. > > > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / > ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University [email protected] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson
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