The passage EricC quotes below makes a good point about the non-stationarity of people’s knowledge and familiarities.
Once I am mindful of that, I have to admit that there is a much bigger non-stationarity of their worldviews. There are things about Darwin’s contemporaries that would have dictated what his project was, that I guess I can “understand”, but for which I am incapable of any empathy. I don’t live in a world suffused by God. When I hear God-talk around me, I don’t suppose that there is something they mean, and that I have any idea what that is. I guess I experience them about like I would experience a pack of kids repeating 6-7 (if I knew the kids could suddenly become murderous on occasion, on signals I didn’t recognize). I do hear a metaphor doing work (the Devil’s work): imposing human intentionality metaphorically on natural phenomena. I can imagine I were faced with a world-hoard of such people, that they were incorrigible, and that there were no alternatives to be sought out among them. It probably would make no sense to even hope to transition them into a kind of person that is not hard to find today: somebody like me, who can also hear all the same talk within informal categories, but hears in it only the most familiar and discouraging human narcissism. If that transition were off the table, what options would be left to me? I guess I would admit defeat, try to limit my losses, and resort to metaphors that (as a modern) I find cognitively bad-faith, because maybe I would consider that gambit better than accomplishing nothing at all. I might say “Yeah yeah yeah, intention, breeders, design, etc., since I know you won’t be capable of hearing _anything_ I say in any other terms than those. But could you at least bring yourselves to see natural circumstances as the designer? Just allow nature a little thin bedsheet or veil, to interpose between the intentionality and the empirical events that make up sorting and retention/elimination?” Maybe if I were myself one of these God-suffused people, doing empirical work and trying to find my way to some argument that was less empirically vacant than what we had all inherited, my path to the metaphors would be even more coerced into one channel, and maybe I wouldn’t parse it as one of the varieties of defeat. Then I would probably volunteer a rhetoric closer to Nick’s, in which “we know what they/we-all are; now we’re just negotiating the price”. For me as I actually am, fighting off the religious (and specifically Christian; my old Japanese friends tell me there was never the same resistance when Darwin was brought to the Buddhists) narcissism is the least-interesting thing Darwin did, even though I understand it was probably the most socially consequential in its European context. Other things, most notably introducing a non-Philoponian notion of causation, are much more conceptually interesting, and very very modern, in the cognitive problem they solve, and the world for which they pave a way. Since superstition had already been mostly expunged from colliding billiard balls and the like, I (again, in my modern and incorrigible Weltanschauung) am unable to see its persistence w.r.t. all biological phenomena as anything but a human motivational pathology, which pre-empts cognitive questions from even entering consideration. EricS > On Mar 27, 2026, at 14:30, Eric Charles <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Tracking what EricS says re the "natural selection" metaphor... here is an > excerpt from the incipient book.... > > Natural Selection – The Thing That Explains Evolution <> > Darwin explains evolution as a result of Natural Selection, which invokes the > model of Artificial Selection, or as it was more simply called in Darwin’s > day Selection. It is important to note the language of Darwin’s day, because > it reminds us that Selection―the intentional breeding of organisms to produce > descendants with desired traits―was a process that most people in Darwin’s > time were quite familiar with. > You will recall that that a model is a situation we think we understand well, > which is invoked to explain unseen aspects of a situation we think we > understand less well. In Darwin’s day, there was much confusion over why > organisms should be adapted to their natural environments, but there was > little confusion about the process of selection and its effectiveness. This > creates awkwardness when we try to teach about evolution today, because, when > most of our students enter class, they know very little about how breeding > programs work. We start with students who understand neither how breeders > intentionally control the variation in generations of their stock, nor how > organisms become adapted to their environments, and we try to make them > familiar enough with the former to use it as a model in explaining the > latter. This leads to two possible problems: First, we may fail to get our > students familiar enough with the model itself. Second, even if we could be > certain that the students understood artificial selection sufficiently, that > would not guarantee that they understood Darwin’s application of the model. > ...... [dairy cow example] ..... > We use the example of dairy cattle to illustrate the selection model, but > what model did Darwin have in mind? Darwin was an avid pigeon breeder, and > pigeon-breeding was probably the model he had in mind when he came up with > the idea of natural selection. Alas, the cows make a better model for the > modern reader, who will find it quite intuitive why one might want a dairy > cow that produces more milk, but will likely find it mysterious why one would > favor, for example, a skinny pigeon whose throat inflates into a globe large > enough for the pigeon's beak to rest upon. (We authors find it mysterious as > well, though the aesthetic is oddly pleasing.) > <image.jpeg>[i] <x-msg://54/#_edn1> > > [i] <x-msg://54/#_ednref1> By Karl Wagner (1864–1939) Public Domain, > https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=30811756 > > > Best, > Eric > > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 7:34 AM Santafe <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> This is a great note, in the sense of being helpful from endless going >> around in circles, and written to get somewhere. I am always grateful when >> EricC visits from the Oort cloud and enables a conversation to go into some >> direction again. >> >> I want, though (of course) to object to something. And a paragraph below >> enables me to see the way I want to do it. EC already understands the >> source of the objection, and I will include the final paragraph where it is >> flagged, though I want to beware oversimplifying to the point of having >> strawmen (which I don’t think is being done here). But first; the objection: >> >> >>> On Mar 26, 2026, at 16:25, Eric Charles <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> There are at least three interesting things going on in the metaphor >>> discussion. The least interesting aspect of it is squabbling over what does >>> or does not count as a metaphor (vice simile, model, analogy, etc.). Not >>> that that isn't a perfectly good discussion, it just that it's *just* a >>> vocabulary discussion, not an ideas discussion. >>> >>> 1) What is an explicit metaphor, and to what extent do the constant >>> implicit metaphors that permeate our language resemble them? Nick has a >>> particular way of thinking about metaphors, based on the intent of the >>> person invoking the metaphor. Metaphors always assert that two things are >>> alike, not that they are identical, so that implies that all metaphors are >>> imperfect, and that that is intentional, and does not invalidate a >>> metaphor. Metaphors can thus be divided into intended implications and >>> not-intended implication, etc., etc. .... and Nick is fairly obsessed with >>> these, especially in scientific contexts where people seem to be using the >>> metaphors in different ways and that leads to a deep underlying confusion >>> in a seemingly functional field, e.g., Darwinian evolution by means of >>> "natural" selection.... >> >> This is the poster child for a thing that to me is the ultimate non-issue, >> and has been shown to be the non-issue it is for many decades now. >> >> Look up George Price: >> sciencedirect.com >> >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,LiZkhWK0CnAKHiDnM8ymHlEYM9eaTmBl-Pm46o4LHF9tT1qCALbW2wD1gd9kTQ61lztSwx6mqH6Jl2cIwQYTc9L5TnqyLMY214d0jcgNVGhXh1n9RhA,&typo=1>sciencedirect.com >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,W3dKl-ox5a6gYgmXV1mvxgdASoR140cWFzt9NvHUFiKFUn3joEJlLvSL7fLzEf5YBj-Xe9O6-xf4hKOulX9pl-bzOXzmfveGe3MErMWbrAE,&typo=1> >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sciencedirect.com%2fscience%2farticle%2fabs%2fpii%2fS002251938570149X&c=E,1,o_3R8DA08GbsWi615mxmIrmkg5AJSlZWAwzi7ZbVo0e9fahJVwHBzARBroebtxSPRzo4mFI6SOUyzEg80w0zj0k78_jqZSE7BK4DxxduhT-Oyrl_GrlnuOrZrg,,&typo=1>https://gwern.net/doc/genetics/selection/natural/1995-price.pdf >> >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fgwern.net%2fdoc%2fgenetics%2fselection%2fnatural%2f1995-price.pdf&c=E,1,MGdnlNH-SlLkbCSWxv_RPzA-cDzDWUzan1XBhSedHDlNR_NiwPVoi_SuhK4dVIj-OttHnDT-h97CWbeg1wlpNVc782NjcStazE-k6Y-99SY_cw,,&typo=1> >> >> Price lays out, to a perfectly acceptable degree, an operational >> description. Of sets of things, of partitioning, of some’s being retained >> and others’ being eliminated, from the ongoing history of sets that are the >> targets of description. It’s a phenomenon that takes place in nature, in >> all sorts of forms. We need some lexeme to refer to it. What is a good >> one? Selection seems about as apt as anything in English. Quite beside >> the fact that Darwin wrote about animal breeding, this will still be perhaps >> the most apt word I have available. Not merely “sorting”, because I need >> also the consequence of the sort that a retention/elimination step ensues. >> Human intentionality is not imputed to the phenomenon itself at all, though >> there can be a subset of cases where it enters as part of the chain of >> causation. >> >> When anybody resurrects this zombie of claiming that some terrible metaphor >> of human breeding-selection is indelible in the cognition of people thinking >> about evolution that leads them into confusion, my experience of the >> conversation is much like the experiences I have had with the Implicit Bias >> crowd. It doesn’t take much time around many of them, before I am pretty >> firmly convinced that what they want is to condemn basically everybody (but, >> one by one, whomever they are talking to). (The nicest image that comes to >> mind is Aunt Ada’s “I saw something nasty in the woodshed” from Cold Comfort >> Farm, with about as much content.) The motivation is the whole, and any >> conversation will take whatever sophistic form gives the performance of >> fulfilling the motivation. To be clear about what really is going on, and >> to think well about it and improve the way we handle such problems in >> living, is incidental to why they do what they do. A kind of trojan horse >> of a kind we so often see: the existence of a legitimate justice aim becomes >> a vehicle for people who want to play domination games and to bully. They >> don’t erase the legitimate justice aim, but by having little serious >> interest in it (or a secondary and self-serving one, at best), they move it >> out of scope for any interaction you can have with them. At which point I >> don’t feel like feeding the trolls. Talk to me about really understanding >> and really helping, and stop the performing and pretending, or leave me >> alone. >> >> I do think one has to have some interest in knowing what people are doing, >> in context of the commitment to get thoughts clear and to solve some >> problems for which the solution has criteria, to keep such intuitions from >> turning into strawmen. >> >> >> The paragraph I promised to acknowledge, which I think also sees all this, >> was this one: >> >>> I suspect that much of the frustration of Nick v others on this list is the >>> instance of those others that any implications of the flavor text can be >>> ignored once the mechanism has been mathematized, vs Nick's instance that >>> if the flavor text is still being used it is almost certainly doing some >>> metaphor-like work in the background of whoever is using, or hearing, the >>> term (because otherwise, why not ditch it entirely). >> >> Eric(S) >> >> >> .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / >> ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,MvPBzumjGOMvFK48LUE0UQdK6VK6AUsi-eqaPe-flsYvZ0f7_LB5yci4M8zC-CtR0mpGGSiMW2M7COP8gMUSKt6e8dhc3KUDw-ZC0pXG58u5nKRwO5QjHKai&typo=1> >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,3BFC9wiNIbu0RfUrBwJx1rkjQdAKKedb41UsL7jDB2npyaJat-SYo0cw5PMXdJVyRgb9KEuejlxaqpWCCiyMhABfYpM43XgAyq_ZIyJM-hCN5AlHo7kSm-LOpVo,&typo=1> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,IgtO2FJhZAEzZm5VACZ2xJXokYCfBYldFO9Rj6TJSFZA6REp5UyafbZu07PGVO2IQM2XZZ_y8Os1pz7xFolcfdO8OHqq2x79yt76eGCZjB2xbhbTP8WLna4,&typo=1> >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,QgyHEN8mtBltV1wFgqKecKYrfWkCV6cflhxJOF240A3fvfaDP4rUp5DXuFWXBvMYB0G2k9P__XuBmLVEOG1KzZ5xpgAtaUPOPpexAhpsmwCW27A,&typo=1> >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > .- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ... > --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-.. > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,8iXRlI1pj0zUtrMzZfwyoUxIS73vC62FY9mCy1sNzzFttJVlKMY7ZoGdp2_9B9eaF0XcYQyEMZ0nc7i8gWlMYIARbN_5o2bVFTEcO5PtU-07aCTjNrbV17FmkwU,&typo=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,QHW68YQPp1yt6QmYx0xH4qtvTX2sX4Zm6oblF7-j2e9eodWJG4b9w0SeMKJjWpxPQ42I_crhR1lTWYlvLDlddd993C2W2SMDjcF2OZfj-bGzLJBamgUpSSamXA,,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,MqgGGnrMAwRtuhkRgta5E3LFzsBHFRwLCRc9jXDY32j0BPKxBHewY9Ocn1Pnxwqsovt2MZJjGiQQk6xA_7k_V2URdb6p96gFG_Dq7v2HlFV7&typo=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,Hx0DCJUQfyi08R6IbxTw2Wur8q44J2sa2_KLlGwrRDM0iS0SKUttWnKTvgGJLobC6fDg4_GEgd1jt6znDgBLu5r2CRbbUAxp2uOu_PBYRZ4,&typo=1 > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
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