Tim, please keep us apprised of your progress.

Hill

On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, 4:47 am Tim Daly, <[email protected]> wrote:

> LEAN4 and mathlib provide a solid foundation for a future upgrade.
>
> I am currently looking at parallel hierarchical structures which would
> mirror the category structure now in place. A Group, for example, would
> have a corresponding "proof" structure which asserts various axioms,
> theorems,
> and definitions. The proof structure would inherit LEAN4 information and
> make it available to domains that implement Group functions. These
> functions could then be proven using the Group-Proof information.
>
> This has the additional benefit that, once proven, a function can be used
> in other domains as part of proofs of their functions.
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:58:16 AM UTC-5 [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Further to my previous comment and opening an opportunity for discussion.
>>
>> Properties should not be automatic in that it is up to the programmer to
>> decide if he/she wants a category or domain to have some specific property.
>> This is already done in various areas. It would mean that the default
>> functionality of a category definition would be removed.
>>
>> Now in terms of axioms, I think that a new facility of defining axioms
>> within the category/domain definitions would be better suited for clarity
>> and understanding.
>>
>> Possibly something like
>>
>> Axiom name : syntactic structure
>>
>> Axiom LeftDistributive : Operator(*,+) Variables(a,b,c) == a*(b+c) <->
>> a*b + a*c
>> Axiom CharacteristicZero : Characteristic(0)
>>
>> I do not have sufficient knowledge to really suggest what should be
>> appropriate here. But we can at least open the discussion to what might be
>> suitable.
>>
>> Hill
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 4:39 PM Hill Strong <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Ralf,
>>>
>>> After reading and digesting both Waldek's and your responses, my view is
>>> that the FriCAS language is conflating a number of ideas into a single
>>> syntactic structure.
>>>
>>> Looking through the source code available, there are various
>>> [properties] that are being defined automatically under some circumstances
>>> and having to be defined manually in others.
>>>
>>> This is the first inconsistency since it is not obvious to those coming
>>> from alternative fields.
>>>
>>> It may now be far too late to fix this.
>>>
>>> The other problem is the use of category definitions to specify some
>>> particular property or axiom. The example being the Characteristic 0.
>>>
>>> In this case, additional syntax/semantic support is required as pointed
>>> out by yourself. Since there are different kinds of axioms and/or
>>> associated properties that are applicable and there appears to be various
>>> ways that these axioms can be specified, one would have to find  common
>>> ground here.
>>>
>>> That common ground could be in the form of incorporating systems like
>>> Lean 4 or Metamath. The problem would then require the ability contained in
>>> the system t be able to restructure code entered under user control.
>>> Certainly, FriCAS already incorporates some of the required functionality
>>> by its type system, but whether this additional restructuring (by
>>> application of the axioms) is feasible, I don't know.
>>>
>>> A different approach may be required by looking at alternative systems
>>> and using them as a base (such as Lean 4).
>>>
>>> An interesting question and problem.
>>>
>>> Hill
>>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 1:38 am Ralf Hemmecke, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I also want to add this bit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/fricas/fricas/blob/master/src/algebra/catdef.spad#L214
>>>>
>>>> CharacteristicZero() : Category == Ring
>>>>
>>>> ===============
>>>>
>>>> Suppose
>>>>
>>>>    Foo1(R: CharacteristicZero) : ... == ...
>>>>    Foo2(R: Ring) : ... == ...
>>>>
>>>> FriCAS uses the named category CharacteristicZero to transport the
>>>> message that a corresponding domain should implement a ring with
>>>> characteristic 0. That is a bit of information that can be exploited in
>>>> the implementation of Foo1, but not Foo2.
>>>>
>>>> Admittedly, it would be nicer that instead of just using well-chosen
>>>> names we had a mechanism (syntax) to specify the mathematical axioms
>>>> for
>>>> that property.
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, it is done for CommutativeRing. Commutativity of * of the
>>>> ring in FriCAS is nowhere else specified than by the special category
>>>> CommutativeStar which (more or less) comes with an empty definition as
>>>> most other categories in the file attribs.spad.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/fricas/fricas/blob/master/src/algebra/attribs.spad#L88
>>>>
>>>> Hill, if you find a better (more mathematical) way to implement
>>>> properties/axioms that would be great. It probably was a challenge back
>>>> then when Scratchpad started, but maybe it is not anymore. Do you know?
>>>>
>>>> Ralf
>>>>
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>>>> .
>>>>
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