On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Mainbox Notif <[email protected]> wrote: > Avraham Schneider, > > You make it worse: > You use the bible! > This is war! This is not a believe. > > I believe in the bible, but we cannot and maynot use a religion when we are > talking about facts! > > Don't use the bible to defend yourself. > This is not a game... I am not talking about beliefs, I am talking about facts.
Those facts happen to be listed in the Torah. Just look at it as archeological evidence if you prefer. > > > > 2009/1/6 Avraham Schneider <[email protected]> >> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:06 PM, j-f sentier <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Relativisation in this case is neccessary, because the UK took this land >> > from arabians, >> > and gived it to jews mostly because it was >> > supposedly them promised land. >> > Before that maybe not much arabians was living there, but still it was >> > them >> > land. >> > The not legit attribution in 1948 of the land to israel was the conflict >> > starter and still today, now excuses have changed, palestinian are >> > throwing >> > rocks and old school rockets around the border in israel. >> > What have changed so far ? as i sayed in my first post on this topic, >> > israel >> > is very young 61 years old, and have been in war with all of them >> > neighbors, >> > also while fighting with them, israel once again has taken more land >> > during >> > theses wars. >> >> History time-line (facts) >> 17th-6th C. BCE >> >> c.17th century (BCE) - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the >> Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land >> of Israel. Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt. >> c.13th century (BCE) - Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from >> Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert. >> Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai. >> 13th-12th centuries (BCE) - Israelites settle in the Land of Israel >> c.1020 (BCE) - Jewish monarchy established; Saul, first king. >> c.1000 (BCE) - Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom. >> c.960 (BCE) - First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the >> Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon. >> c. 930 (BCE) - Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel >> 722-720 (BCE) - Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost >> Tribes). >> 586 (BCE) - Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple >> destroyed; most Jews exiled. >> 538 - 142 (BCE) - Persian and Hellenistic periods >> 538 - 515 (BCE) - Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt. >> 332 (BCE) - Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule. >> 166-160 (BCE) - Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on >> practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple >> 142-129 (BCE) - Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans. >> 129-63 (BCE) - Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy. >> 63 (BCE) - Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey. >> 63-4 BCE - Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel; Temple >> in Jerusalem refurbished >> c. 20-33 (CE) - Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth >> 66 (CE) - Jewish revolt against the Romans >> 70 (CE) - Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple. >> 73 (CE) - Last stand of Jews at Masada. >> 132-135 (CE) - Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome. >> 614 (CE) - Persian invasion >> 636-1099 (CE) - Arab rule >> 691 (CE) - On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of >> the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik. >> 1099-1291 (CE) - Crusader domination (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem) >> 1291-1516 (CE) - Mamluk rule >> 1517-1917 (CE) - Ottoman rule >> 1882-1903 (CE) - First Aliya (large-scale immigration), mainly from >> Russia. >> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, >> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded. >> 1904-14 (CE) - Second Aliya, mainly from Russia and Poland. >> 1909 (CE) - First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city, >> Tel Aviv, founded. >> 1917 (CE) - 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British >> conquest;British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for >> establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine" >> 1918-48 (CE) - British rule >> >> >> As you can see, it was not taken from Arabs but was given by the >> British, who took it from the Ottomans. >> >> > >> > I can understand why palestinian mothers are telling to theirs sons to >> > wear >> > a bomb, and blow themself to kill some israelians, i totally do not >> > approve >> > this, but as a mather of fact, i understand the despair for this people >> > (open-mind is a crime ?). >> teaching your kid to strap a bomb against their chest and commit >> suicide while murdering innocent people is much more like child abuse >> than being open-minded if you ask me. I think others here would >> concur. >> >> > >> > Also as i sayed in my first post, another problem of Israelites is that >> > they think they are elected by god... and then are superior to any >> > other >> > race/religion, i'm not inventing nothing here.. it's written in the >> > Thora. >> > >> > Just this fact is a fundamental communication problem, for any >> > discution >> > because persons such as Avraham will always overlook the others point of >> > view. >> I think a bigger communication problem is being blind (on purpose) to >> facts. >> >> > >> > I'm not pro-palestinian >> Could have fooled me. >> >> > or pro-israel, the only thing i know is >> > relativisation in such conflict should be always the first thing to do >> > before dumping any crap from your brain. >> Why don't you start then? >> >> > >> > A correction for Avraham: >> > Jews != Israel >> A Jew is a decendent of Avraham, Isac and Jacob on the father side, >> having a Jewish mother. >> Conversion to Judaism is also possible, bud discouraged for reasons I >> will not get into here. >> >> Jacob's name was changed by G-d to Israel - you can find it in the >> Torah - not that I expect or want you to read it. >> >> > Sionists != Jews >> 1897 (CE) - First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, >> Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded. >> Zionism was an international political movement that supported the >> reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in the Land of >> Israel. >> >> >> > >> > Also you sayed that jews that dont support the state and actions of >> > israel, >> > are not real jews, or have lost the believe, this again is propaganda , >> > as >> To clarify - I did not say they are not real Jews. >> >> As for propaganda - see my previous points on the difference between >> facts and propaganda. >> >> > the US government was doing in USA a few years ago, "if you're not for >> > the >> > invasion/war in irak/afghanistan, you're not a real american". >> It is obvious that you are also against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. >> The reason the US is fighting there is close to the reason why >> Israelis are fighting in Gaza - to ensure peace to their citizens. >> Should I remind you of 9-11? >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > 2009/1/6 Ed Carp <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:14 AM, j-f sentier <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > "what would you call your lies" >> >> > Which lies ? >> >> > You're tunnel-focused on your point, with no relativisation at all, >> >> > which >> >> >> >> Relativism is for opinions, not for fact. >> >> >> >> > There's two side on a medial, dont forget that, that's why i say >> >> > you're >> >> > doing propaganda, while criticizing the other propaganda. >> >> >> >> No, there's not - the only side is the truth, the facts, which I guess >> >> you choose to label as lies and propaganda. What was presented is >> >> FACT, not opinion. How can FACT be relative? >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. >> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html >> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ > > _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
