True, I know some hackers who really apply the "Ballmers Peak" ( http://xkcd.com/323/) principle... They simply need to dry up :)
On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:51 PM, xD 0x41 <[email protected]> wrote: > Well, statistics show that most crime is done on some form of drug, and > drug addiction is probably about 90% of most major crime evens, so, i think > this gives people of the IT nature, a much higher chance, staitstically > speaking, it would be of more benfit to simply rehab them, rather than make > them a possible statistic of the 'rotation' count most harder crims have. > ok,. im out! > xd > > > > On 3 October 2011 22:38, Darren Martyn > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Well, thanks for the logical response :) >> >> Many people want these "evil hackers" locked up and such, but doing so >> will only achieve the folowing (in my opinion): >> A: Cost money. >> B: Turn them into a more hardened criminal. >> C: Cost the community a useful person who could be beneficial to them. >> >> Consider that Davis is 18, Cleary only 19, and other people arrested are >> about the same age. What the law enforcement and judicial bodies dealing >> with them must realize is that they are dealing with intelligent young >> people, who simply chose the wrong path. What they need is not a prison >> stay, but some rehabilitative treatment, perhaps councilling to help them >> find the right path, and a better sense of morality. >> >> Hell, in some cases the mere arrest itself scared people straight. Having >> a bloody SWAT team blow the bloody doors off is enough to reangline* most >> young mens moral compass! >> >> Of course, jailing them can be used to "send a message" that "this is not >> acceptable" and such, but that has *less* merit than *using* them for good. >> All one does by sending a message is make those still out there feel more >> persecuted, and persecuted people lash out, doing more damage, and the cycle >> continues. >> >> *This computers spellcheck is not working, it wants to use Cyrillic! >> >> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 12:28 PM, xD 0x41 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Ok.. my final posts on this matter i think... and opinons, >>> >>> >>> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather >>> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming >>> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and >>> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them). >>> >>> It does outweigh, for, each time a perso is jailed it costs you, me, and >>> anyone wh works, money. >>> We can re3duce the harm, by education and counselling. Especially forced >>> hours per-week basis, of counselling with a qualified psych, possibly before >>> release even better. >>> I think the IQ level is higher, therfore, there is a 'smarter' chance of >>> it happening, asmuch as theyre hacking, theyre also gaining tremendus >>> knoledge, many do go into IT sec, we just cannot see those cases really..and >>> when we do, theyre usually yrs after the thing has happened, but, i could >>> think of a few EU based guys who are hapily workin for huge co's, making >>> massive cash, evven maker of Morphine, HolyFather, admittedly went into Av, >>> and made rootkits for years. >>> So, for sure, why put them in jail, it is just going to 'harden' , like >>> anyone will when ones back is up against the wall, as it will be in jail >>> ofc. >>> I think rehab, rather than retalliate. >>> >>> Bedtme here for me :) >>> I enjoy your posts, and i think the whole topic has much merit in these >>> lists, other than just about a cpl of websites, pople forget that it is >>> still about, the freedom to even, do a simple pentest , really thats the >>> crux of it. >>> >>> So, i think,some method used by psychology, could very easily work, >>> especially because, these guys are usually VERY smart, and, the can still be >>> 'saved' unlike some hardened armed-robber/burglar... >>> The chance of rehab, is specially high because of the intellectual >>> platform it takes just to be at a simple or mediate level of the scale, in >>> terms of 'hacking' in hgeneral. >>> cheers, >>> xd >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 October 2011 22:17, Darren Martyn < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for the input, I will be putting this as a debate soon for thew >>>> Law Society in the Uni I attend, to see what the legal guys think. >>>> >>>> The issue in the example is not fraud, but damage done to the servers >>>> (lets assume root/deface) and perhaps leaking of stolen data - the case I >>>> am >>>> using as an example would be, for example, the "LulzSec" breaches. How hard >>>> would they get f*cked on an international scale if arrested? How many >>>> countries will try extradite them? >>>> >>>> In my opinion, they should be simply charged, tried and convicted in >>>> their country of residence and be done with it - there is no benefit to >>>> society as a whole to be gained from hanging them three or four times a >>>> piece, as I reckon given a good shock and such, they come out with a >>>> newfound respect for authority and may even be of some benefit to the >>>> security community and the community as a whole. Locking them up merely >>>> turns them further toward criminal lives - and remember, all hackers *have* >>>> potential to do good as well as evil, it is just a matter of their choice. >>>> Given a *shove* toward the right decision is more beneficial in the end. >>>> >>>> "Discuss"... >>>> >>>> (No, seriously, I wonder what your opinions are on rehabilitative rather >>>> than punitative measures to be taken against criminal hackers, assuming >>>> fraud was *not* involved, and what benefit they can be to the community and >>>> whether it outweighs the negative effects of not making examples of them). >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:34 AM, xD 0x41 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Could just lok at the recent david cecil case here in .au. >>>>> It does say alot, because he did breach some bigger networks.. and he >>>>> was committing 'smaller' scale fraud but, still fraud, however, his main >>>>> problem was what he did to a governemnt site, wich was deface it for >>>>> personal gain, not profit. >>>>> It is the latest case wich would be valid of this. >>>>> still.. intresting infos... good stuff. >>>>> xd >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3 October 2011 19:16, Darren Martyn < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Going back to my own example, say all three are first world countries, >>>>>> and A and C are in the EU whilst B is the US. All nations involved have >>>>>> good >>>>>> diplomatic relations and preexisting extradition treaties, and to add >>>>>> interest to it, lets say the LEO in B and C helped the investigation. The >>>>>> criomes would be non-financial, but say, large scale hacks and such. I >>>>>> will >>>>>> use Jake Davis's case as a "canary case" for this though... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 12:31 AM, xD 0x41 <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ah, the legend of the mailing-list himself, has spoken. >>>>>>> not knowing you, for all i have seen, your a pathetic sack of >>>>>>> rubbish, and really, what we are discussing, if you had ANY clue, wich >>>>>>> obv >>>>>>> dont, is simply how far our own freedom is going. >>>>>>> You are an idiot. >>>>>>> Have a nice day. >>>>>>> xd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2 October 2011 08:45, andrew.wallace < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:50 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> > On Sat, 01 Oct 2011 09:16:11 +1000, xD 0x41 said: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >> As you also said, murder is a no brainer in any place...well, >>>>>>>> maybe not iraq >>>>>>>> >> or afghanistan just yet :P lol.. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Iraq, for all its problems, is still a place with a somewhat >>>>>>>> functional >>>>>>>> > judicial system. The court system may be broken, but you in >>>>>>>> general *will* at >>>>>>>> > least appear in a courtroom with a judge and be pronounced guilty >>>>>>>> before you're >>>>>>>> > punished. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > I was actually thinking more along the lines of totally failed >>>>>>>> states such as >>>>>>>> > Somalia, Sudan, or the contested parts of Afghanistan, where you >>>>>>>> can't be tried >>>>>>>> > for murder because there isn't a court to try you *in*. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Have you not grown old of talking to children on mailing lists? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Andrew Wallace >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Independent consultant >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.n3td3v.org.uk >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. >>>>>>> Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html >>>>>>> Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
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