I seemed to have struck a nerve here Maurizio. I have to say, nothing you have written here has particularly enhanced my concept of the the MCSE program.
There are specific MVPs who certainly are cheerleaders but that has nothing to do with them being MVPs nor the general state of the MVP Program. In fact when I was awarded 3/4 or so years ago it was during Code Red and Nimda and I was blasting MS in the public forums for their idiotic behavior of enabling everything by default when most of the people who used Windows couldn't spell IIS let alone figure out how to turn it off. When I was approached to be an MVP I specifically asked if I would be censored or required to pay homage in any way, shape, or form because if that were the case, I wasn't having it. I was assured that wasn't the case and have pushed the boundaries of that multiple times without issue. Once I became an MVP, I rallied for, successfully I might add, for services to mostly be off and the bar to be raised so that someone who wanted it on had to actually learn how to turn it on. More recently the MVPs rallied (also successfully) for MS to release SP2 to everyone and NOT have it lock out pirated copies. As a general group, we aren't cheerleaders by any stretch of the word. On the flip side, there are certainly MCSEs who know what the heck they are doing. Being an MCSE isn't why they do though, they had that ability prior to being an MCSE most likely. I would say the top 3-5 guys I personally know in the world of Windows for how it works are not MCSE's. They are developers,PM's, and consultants who actually work for Microsoft. Most of the rest of the top twenty-five aren't MCSE's either unless for some reason they HAD to get the certification which happened to a good friend and fellow MVP recently. I think he spent maybe three weeks getting it and that was because he was traveling at the time and training Microsoft PSS folks. On the description of what an MVP is on my site... Do you know what a flip response is? Does MCSE mean someone is an "expert in all Microsoft technologies and products". No. Such a person does not exist, you can not be an expert in all Microsoft Tech, the field is far too wide. You can't even be an expert in all client tech or all server tech. You are either going to be a generalist or a tech expert for a specific area, possibly both, but you certainly aren't a tech expert across all tech MS has. In general the MVPs are probably the most realistically hardest group on Microsoft. We actually understand how many of their products work and have strong opinions on how they should work and have direct persistent connections and exposure to the people who can fix what we see wrong. We are stuck in rooms with the Microsoft VPs and Developers as well as get their real email addresses and phone numbers and are on private listsservs to convince them as well. A bunch of MVPs in a room with a PM or VP responsible for a product is ANYTHING but a group of cheerleaders. We recently had a Security summit with maybe 50-60 Security MVPs where we spent a good amount of time every day pointing out issues and possible solutions to MS about IE and running as local admin and the documentation and many other things. Another good portion of the time was spent with them showing us new products and tech that were being worked on to solve many of the issues present today and explaining how they intend to make things better. The last 3 or so hours of that event was spent sitting in a room spouting our general feedback from working groups to the likes of Rich Kaplan and the people under him where we would voice concerns and Rich would rephrase what we said and make sure his people were taking good notes. We also had Mike Nash in the room at one point as well listening to what we had to say. You may not have a credence in the technical ability and opinions of MVPs, but Microsoft certainly has and if I had to chose whose respect and attention I wanted to have, you would come up wanting in that decision. On the real life business experience, you really don't know what you are talking about in that realm with me. I feel bad if it took you a long time of hard work to become an MCSE and you feel it had value beyond what it actually has. An MCSE is generally a piece of paper to get you in the door of a hiring company who has an HR person that sees MCSE as a documented requirement because of a misunderstanding by the IT Management of the value of MCSE. Once you get into the job, real capability and understanding is what kicks in and matters. The simple fact is that many people get MCSE certs in a matter of weeks, it is simply a matter of money and a little bit of time and memorization. If I wasn't known in the industry and just starting out, I would consider getting an MCSE. Nothing now would entice me to do so as it isn't something I need to get my foot in the door. The only time I seriously considered it was in the late 90's after I had taken some classes on the NT stuff. I quickly realized that the classes and the content of the exams wasn't too reflective of what was done in the real world in Fortune 50 companies so decided against it. I have not suffered in the least due to that decision. As a short recap, let's look at some differences between MVPs and MCSE's 1. Which can occur in shortest time, becoming an MVP or becoming an MCSE? MCSE - 7-14 days. See bootcamps that are available, I have had friends do it even without bootcamp. 2. Which participate in regularly scheduled NDA chats with Microsoft Dev, product managers, and Execs? MVPs 3. Which ones have to sign NDAs yearly due to sensitive information they are presented and accesses they have? MVPs 4. Which ones are brought back to Redmond at least once a year for NDA level meetings with Dev, PM's, and Execs? MVPs 5. Are there more MCSEs or MVPs? MCSEs 6. Who, as a group, has access to Windows Source Code, MCSEs or Windows MVPs? Windows MVPs. This is to help with the tough outlook questions you mentioned. 7. How much does it cost to become an MVP? Nothing. How much does it cost to become an MCSE? Varies, but at the minimum several hundred dollars. Some spend thousands. 8. How often does an MVP have to be renewed? They don't, every year they have to be reawarded from scratch. How often does an MCSE have to renew? Once an MCSE, always an MCSE, however they can upgrad when new OSes are released every so often. And there are usually upgrade helper methods to maintain the MCSE, testing from scratch is not required. 10. What kind of peer review is involved with MCSE program? None. How about MVPs? MVPs are responsible for nominating other MVPs and are often asked what they feel about this or that nominee and whether they should be awarded. I could go on with this list but I don't need to. There is nothing integral to the MCSE program that says an MCSE actually has to understand what they are doing but an MVP who consistenly answers things incorrectly will not be re-awarded if they were mistakenly awarded in the first place. An MCSE simply has to have the ability to pass written tests in a scheduled time frame, all that implies is the ability to memorize information for a short time. Maurizio, take the time to look closer at that list of MVPs next time you are out at the MS Site. I would be highly shocked if you haven't learned something from one or more of them as it means you aren't reading many (dare say most) of the good Windows books (as well as non Windows books such as popular books on DNS and other internet tech) that are available, including several MCSE study guides. Also tools from several large third party vendors such as Quest and SysInternals come from the minds of MVPs who are CTOs and developers. joe -- Pro-Choice Let me choose if I even want a browser loaded thanks! -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Maurizio Trinco Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 3:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: joe the "expert" (was Re: [Full-Disclosure] IE is just as safe as FireFox ) "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [1] Don't get me started on MCSEs. As a whole I think they hurt Windows far > more than any other thing. A bunch of people who feel they are experts in > Windows because they took a couple of tests that 10 year olds could memorize > and pass and yet still not be able to run anything. The best I can say about > MCSEs is that I will *try* not to look down upon them for being MCSEs and > let them prove themselves to be worthless before I assume it in person. Now from joe's own site, comes this fully untrue statement: 'So what is a Microsoft MVP? The flip response is a Microsoft MVP is a person who answers the questions the MCSE/MCD/MCT folks ask.' My dear Joe, Let's see what Microsoft has to say about MVPs: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-US;mvpfaqs&style=fl at Are Microsoft MVPs experts in all Microsoft technologies and products? No. Although many MVPs have in-depth knowledge of more than one product or technology, none of them are experts in all Microsoft technologies or products. So, my dear joe, you are nothing but an ego-inflated bullshitter. Your verbal diarrhea is only matched by your unbelievably low level of competence when it comes to Microsoft products. Being an MCSE is much more than answering some "how do I send a message with Outlook" in one or two newsgroups. I worked really hard for my MCSE titles and honestly, the idea that I (or any of my colleagues) could seek enlightenment from you is simply ridiculous. If you think that passing exams like 216, 296 or the design exams is something an... er, MVP could do... then you'd better think again. While I'm an MCSE, I'm by no means an ass-kisser for Microsoft, as your MVPiness seems to be. Their products, contrary to popular belief, could be extremely complex (try real life business environment, compared to that unlicensed version of Windows 2003 server you're running at home) and many times extremely badly written and vulnerable -- but very complex nevertheless. Saying otherwise, only proves your lack of specialization (hint: familiarity is NOT specialization; you may be 'familiar' with your colorful XP, but that makes you by no means a 'specialist'). Oh, and something else: for some 10 years before I became an MCSE, I was the typical Unix admin. I used to laugh at Windows NT, I stopped laughing at 2000. I'm by no means friends with hip-kiddies who think Linux is cooler than Window$$$, I really dislike Microsoft-moronized Windows ass-kissers like you, who only know buzzwords, but have no real knowledge of the system. You should go together and exchange some fanatic e-mails; you belong in a place where 'my-OS-is-longer-yours' fights 'windows-2003-is-secure-by-default-'cause-Billy-told-us-so'. Anything else... is just proving yourself how MVP and not MCSE you are. Or whatever Unix/IT certification you may choose, other than the ridiculous MVP thingie. Take care and don't let the bedbugs bite. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. 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