Greetings Thomas & all,
This is my last post regarding Thomas Lunde's B.I. Note that my prior
comments were off list( S 2), as were T L's immediately prior to mine from
which quotes T 2 come.
Thomas acknlowledged that scarcities might exist outside Canada. Given
globalization of markets, and increasing mass migrations, the limitation to
a nation-state is a questionable strategy IMO.
> Thomas 3
>
> Steve, I agree except for the comments about experts. I don't trust their
> opinions or their stats.
You can make decisions based upon your spacio-temporal first hand
observations and individual analysis. I believe it is hubris to discount
opinions by those peer reviewed as world class experts.
T 3:
> ...It is the economic system not the limitations of resources that
> often create these shortage statistics.
There are myriad reasons (apparent primary causes) in different situations.
Selecting prime causation is speculative and arguable. The opinions I refer
to are about probable duration of supplies of finite resources. Exact times
and specific local situations are not involved. And "often" means what?
T 3:
> I do not dispute that shortages are coming or that we have too many people,
> but reality is often very different than a statistic or an experts opinion.
"often"?? Would you quantify that on a % basis? Why should you be the
expert?
> >T 2:
> > basic income goes for basic food and shelter
> >requirements and with some careful budgeting, perhaps the fulfillment of
> >some goal, like a new camera, etc.
> >
> >S 2:
> >Or alcohol, drugs.. Can't tell what people will choose to do with money.
>
> Thomas:
>
> You know, I don't know what's so bad about drugs, some of my best friends
> use them and I've had some mighty fine experiences in altered realities.
Ask medical experts about the health costs *to society as a whole* of
alcohol and drug use.
> The real problem with drugs is that society has criminalized them which has
> created lots of criminals.
I agree that criminalization is a poor approach. But who should pay the
costs of the resulting health consequences of usage? Part of my
"resposibilities to society as work behavior" include best efforts at
personal health so as to minimize cost of ones personal health care to
*others*. The polluting/damaging of air, water, soil, forests & ones own
body all cost society.
> And I can assure
> you from first hand experience that drugs are used continously in the homes
> of workers and professionals. The real crime is the politicians won't talk
> about it and use the taxpayers money to make the situation worse.
Agree. Think about heavy taxation on legalized drugs (like tobacco &
alcohol now) to pay for health care. And carbon(pollution) taxes too!
> >T 2:
> >Given that most of these things fall within the possibility of sustainable
> >resources (with proper management), I do/did not consider resource use a
> >limiting criteria to the concept of a Basic Income.
You have offered nothing but personal opinion that "most of these things
..."
> >
> >S 2:
> >Please research this claim a bit if you want to use it in your arguments.
> >My reading has shown 100:1 on side of overshoot of carrying capacity &
> >already exceeding limits.
T 3:
> You are absolutely right Steve and if there is one glaring weakness in my
> arguments it stems from the fact that I am Canadian...
> I think if more people had a Basic Income, there might be
> more countries like mine and more people like me.
You haven't addressed the extra-Canadian universe with the glaring
shortages and quagmires. Ed Weick has also responded that more $ chasing
the same supply of basic goods only drives up prices. Sorry, but you are
making a leap of faith.
> >T 2:
> >The question then becomes to we develop birth control from a population
> >that is unstressed by poverty and lack or do we develop birth control from
> >a society in which an
> >individual can feel a strong sense of security?
> >
> >S 2:
> >The latter is highly unlikely, since even with basic cash income, not
> >enough food/water/fuel etc to deliver currently. Again, I believe what
> >scientists report, & also see violent conflicts over habitat, illegal
> >migrations to greener pastures, backlash from those already there... My
> >idea is free birth control aid & *voluntary* family planning programs, and
> >for those societies who agree to implement these programs, economic aid in
> >the form of food, medicine, technical training, & education. I can't see
> >knowingly increasing fertility (food/medical) without some strings for
> >family planning.
> Thomas 3
>
> Steve, I disagree with the punishment model.
It is an affirmative action model, no punishment intended. There are
limited amounts of food, medical, technological, educational aid to offer.
I say offer it to those who recognize the problematique and who are
attempting to work on solutions. There must be a triage ethic if all cannot
be helped. Otherwise the aid efforts are wasted or far less productive.
Steve Kurtz
