Selma,

Your points are well taken.

However, the basic building block of a group is the individual.
The individual is more important than the group and the formation
of a group, or community is for the betterment of the individual.
(As I've said, an important part of the advancement of humanity
is their gathering into communities.)

But the community is a creation of individuals and is owned by
individuals. Nowadays, we seem to reversed this and consider the
community is more important then the individuals that compose it.

With that I disagree.

Harry

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Henry George School of Social Science
of Los Angeles
Box 655  Tujunga  CA  91042
Tel: 818 352-4141  --  Fax: 818 353-2242
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-----Original Message-----
From: Selma Singer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:42 PM
To: Harry Pollard; 'Stephen Straker'; 'Ed Weick'; 'futurework'
Subject: Re: [Futurework] Re: Hobbes

I think the problem in this discussion is that we think about the
relationship between the individual and the group differently,
Harry. I am
convinced that we must approach social issues from the position
that the
individual and the group are essential to each other's best
development.
That is, the individual  cannot survive, and certainly cannot
thrive without
the group's interests being taken care of, and the group cannot
survive
unless the individual's interests are cared for and unless
individual's are
allowed to develop their best potential.

Given that, to discuss self-interest in terms of just the
individual, or to
discuss social interest just in terms of the group doesn't make
sense to me.

I believe this is just one aspect of the fragmentation problem
that is so
much a part of western materialistic, mechanistic, linear
thinking.

Selma



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Selma Singer'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Stephen
Straker'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Ed Weick'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"'futurework'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: [Futurework] Re: Hobbes


> Selma,
>
> I am not very keen about the Hobbesian Leviathan, but think
more
> about self-interest.
>
> If one always acts in one's self-interest, one is more likely
to
> survive.
>
> If one always acts against one's self-interest, one is less
> likely to survive.
>
> We have survived.
>
> Think what is in our self-interest.
>
> Peace is in our self-interest.
>
> Community is in our self interest.
>
> Cooperation is in our self interest.
>
> Trade is in our self-interest.
>
> Friendship is in our self-interest.
>
> Don't equate self-interest with selfishness which includes a
> disregard for others. Selfishness doesn't seem to be a survival
> value.
>
> We have a tendency to treat observation subjectively. Thus the
> "unlimited desires" assumption is thought to mean we are
greedy.
> It doesn't. And the "least exertion" principle is thought to
mean
> laziness. It doesn't.
>
> Thus with self-interest. It does not mean selfishness.
>
> Harry



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