From: futurework-boun...@lists.uwaterloo.ca
[mailto:futurework-boun...@lists.uwaterloo.ca] On Behalf Of Ed Weick
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 3:33 PM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION
Subject: Re: [Futurework] FW: [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is
a SOCIOLIST!
Not quite sure of what you're getting at here, Ray. We do have lives away
from the market centered on our families, our friends, our politics, our
churches, etc., if that's what you're asking. It's not all buying and selling.
Ed
From: Ray Harrell <<mailto:mc...@nyc.rr.com>mc...@nyc.rr.com>
To: "RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION"
<<mailto:futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:33:25 PM
Subject: [Futurework] FW: [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
Is it true that Canadians don't know about Social Domains and think that
everyone is either a seller or a consumer?
REH
From: Ed Weick [<mailto:ewe...@rogers.com>mailto:ewe...@rogers.com]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:01 PM
To: Ray Harrell; 'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION'
Subject: Re: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
Aw C'mon, Ray! What do you expect? I'm an economist, so of course I'm
grim. Don't know what Steve is, but he thinks like an economist.
Ed
From: Ray Harrell <<mailto:mc...@nyc.rr.com>mc...@nyc.rr.com>
To: 'Ed Weick' <<mailto:ewe...@rogers.com>ewe...@rogers.com>;
"'RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION'"
<<mailto:futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 11:31:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
God! You guys are grim.
REH
From:
<mailto:futurework-boun...@lists.uwaterloo.ca>futurework-boun...@lists.uwaterloo.ca
[mailto:futurework-boun...@lists.uwaterloo.ca] On Behalf Of Ed Weick
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 9:23 AM
To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION
Subject: Re: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
I hear you, Steve. Yet something will have to be done to deal with mass
occupy movements and eventual rioting and revolution. In countries like
the US and Canada it could mean generating employment via practical
measures such as rebuilding and repairing crumbling infrastructure. It
could also mean corrective measures such as reinstating Glass-Steagal,
taxation rates that reflect income more closely, and infusing more honesty
and openness into the FIRE sector. And it could mean spending less money
on military ventures abroad and more money to fix things up at home.
However, I do agree that because of growing population, diminishing
resources and increasing complexity, sinking will likely continue. Perhaps
it could mean converting chicken manure into tasty chicken salad or, as in
the movie Soylent Green, converting the dead into food for the living?
Ed
From: Steve Kurtz <<mailto:kur...@ncf.ca>kur...@ncf.ca>
To: "RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION"
<<mailto:futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>;
Ottawa Dissenters
<<mailto:ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com>ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 7:14:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
Ed,
That would entail overcoming both massive overpopulation ( 300% in your
lifetime) AND automation/robotics. As I have pointed out before, natural
wealth is limited. A nation can divide up the buying power differently
using various taxation and support methods, but what material well-being
is available to be purchased may be shrinking at the same time. I hope you
are right that we can make chicken salad out of chicken manure.
(vernacular law of entropy)
Steve
On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:39 PM, Ed Weick wrote:
Steve, I see the growth of inequality continuing for a time, but one would
expect to see something happen at some point, both a growing occupy type
movement and the launch of government programs that work toward more
employment and improved incomes for the poor.
Ed
From: Steve Kurtz <<mailto:kur...@ncf.ca>kur...@ncf.ca>
To: <mailto:ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com>ottawadissent...@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Futurework
<<mailto:futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>futurework@lists.uwaterloo.ca>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 5:25:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Futurework] [Ottawadissenters] OMG! OMG! Joe Stiglitz is a
SOCIOLIST!
I fully agree with his statement of the facts of increasing inequality. I
dislike that as much as he does. However, I do not think there is much
chance of a reversal anytime soon...if ever. I refer you to the piece I
posted this am about worsening inequality - structurally 'in the cards'
which brought zero response.
Steve
here it is again:
·
· <http://www.npr.org/books/>books
· <http://www.npr.org/sections/author-interviews/>author interviews
Tired Of Inequality? One Economist Says It'll Only Get Worse
by NPR STAFF
September 12, 2013 3:05 AM
<http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse>Listen
to the Story
<http://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/>Morning Edition
5 min 43 sec
·
<http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse>Playlist
·
<http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/me/2013/09/20130912_me_19.mp3?dl=1>Download
·
<http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=221425582>Transcript
<istock_000006025149xsmall_wide-beb6fac6237ff06a64594d3a1fe6b9d54593eb61-s2-c85.jpg>
Economist Tyler Cowen believes that income inequality in America is only
increasing. His new book is called Average Is Over: Powering America
Beyond the Age of the Great Stagnation.
Szasz-Fabian Ilka Erika/<http://istockphoto.com/>iStockphoto.com
Economist Tyler Cowen has some advice for what to do about America's
income inequality: Get used to it. In his latest book, Average Is Over,
Cowen lays out his prediction for where the U.S. economy is heading, like
it or not:
"I think we'll see a thinning out of the middle class," he tells NPR's
Steve Inskeep. "We'll see a lot of individuals rising up to much greater
wealth. And we'll also see more individuals clustering in a kind of
lower-middle class existence."
It's a radical change from the America of 40 or 50 years ago. Cowen
believes the wealthy will become more numerous, and even more powerful.
The elderly will hold on to their benefits ... the young, not so much.
Millions of people who might have expected a middle class existence may
have to aspire to something else.
"Imagine a very large bohemian class of the sort that say, lives in parts
of Brooklyn," Cowen explains. "... It will be culturally upper or
upper-middle class, but there will be the income of lower-middle class.
They may have lives that are quite happy and rewarding, but they may not
have a lot of savings. There will be a certain fragility to this existence."
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation><9780525953739_custom-baba77d33fac317d3723660ff6fbef38c5dc081d-s2-c85.jpg>
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation>Average
Is Over
Powering America Beyond the Age of the Great Stagnation
by <http://www.npr.org/books/authors/138286326/tyler-cowen>Tyler Cowen
Hardcover, 290 pages
<http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse>purchase
· <http://www.npr.org/books/genres/10127/digital-culture/>digital
culture
· <http://www.npr.org/books/genres/10115/nonfiction/>nonfiction
· <http://www.npr.org/books/genres/10108/science-health/>science &
health
·
<http://www.npr.org/books/genres/10102/business-economy/>business & economy
More on this book:
·
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation>NPR
reviews, interviews and more
·
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation?tab=excerpt>Read
an excerpt
Some people, he predicts, may just have to find a new definition of
happiness that costs less money. Cowen says this widening is the result of
a shifting economy. Computers will play a larger role and people who can
work with computers can make a lot. He also predicts that everyone will be
ruthlessly graded every slice of their lives, monitored, tracked and
recorded.
Interview Highlights
On how we'll all be rated, all the time
"Everything is rated. Everything will have a Yelp review. And if you're a
worker, there'll be, like, credit scores. There already are, to some
extent. How reliable are you? How many jobs have you had? Have there been
lawsuits filed against you? How many traffic tickets? And I think we're
also moving to a world where we measure much more precisely. But we as
individuals will quite often find this oppressive."
On how it will be 'easier' for talented people to become rich
"I think what will happen is, because we measure better and more over
time, people who are truly talented will become millionaires much more
easily. So I think we'll move from a country where instead of talking
about the one percent, it will be the 15 percent, for instance. But there
will be fewer second chances in this world, and that's what I think will
be quite difficult."
On how it will be harder to recover from early failures
"I think what happens is when there's more and better measurement, it's
like credit scores. Once you get a bad credit score, yes, it is possible
to fix it, but as you probably know, it's pretty difficult. So I think it
will reward people who are disciplined early in their lives, and that will
help a lot of people, but it also will harm some others."
On what all this means for upward mobility
"I think for a lot of people, upward mobility will be much easier. We're
seeing an enormous amount of global upward mobility that's quite rapid and
quite sudden, and undiscovered individuals have a chance using the
Internet, using computers to prove ve themselves very quickly. So I
think the mobility story will be a quite complicated one. We'll have a
kind of new meritocracy, but again, it will be a meritocracy, which will
be oppressive and perceived as oppressive in some ways due to more rapid
measurement and this requirement that the person in some way really prove
himself or herself."
On returning to an era of inequality
<tylercowen_custom-8e42d85666d78cd363a6df7d2ee57eb6a73e98a6-s6-c85.jpg><http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse>Enlarge
image
Tyler Cowen is a professor of economics at George Mason University. He is
also the author ofThe Great Stagnation, An Economist Gets Lunch, Good and
Plenty and Create Your Own Economy. He blogs at
<http://marginalrevolution.com/>Marginal Revolution.
Stephen Gosling/Courtesy Dutton Adult
"It will be a very strange world, I think. We will be returning to
historical levels of inequality. We'll view post-war America as a kind of
strange interlude not to be repeated. It won't be the dreams that we all
had that virtually all incomes go up in lockstep at three percent a year.
It hurts to give that up. It will mean some very real increases in
economic fragility for a lot of people."
On how this economy may encourage creativity
"I think it will be fantastically creative. I think a lot of people will
be liberated from a lot of oppressive manufacturing jobs, or a lot of
service jobs, because they'll be done by computers. There'll be the
world's best education available online and free. I think there's a lot
about this future that will be enormously, fantastically exciting."
On whether we're giving up on helping the nation's poorest people improve
their status
"I absolutely do not want to give up. But if you ask the question 'Is the
rise in inequality inevitable?' it probably is. The question is: What's
the way to deal with that so that even when income inequality is going up,
maybe happiness inequality isn't going up in the same way."
On the old adage that the poor are happier than the rich
"I don't think that's true. But I think people who are not rich can be
extremely happy. And I think the chances to be happy in this new world,
with many more opportunities to be creative, to be online, to educate
yourself there'll be a lot more chances to be happy. It's not to say
everyone will take them or be equipped to take them, but there will be a
lot of new paths to opportunity."
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation?tab=excerpt>Read
an excerpt of
<http://www.npr.org/books/titles/221423095/average-is-over-powering-america-beyond-the-age-of-the-great-stagnation?tab=excerpt>Average
Is Over
·
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<http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse>Facebook
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<http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse#commentBlock>210Comment
On Sep 12, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Ed Weick wrote:
<http://www.alternet.org/economy/joe-stiglitz-people-who-break-rules-have-raked-huge-profits-and-wealth-and-its-sickening-our?akid=10916.1074389.nrq0ve&rd=1&src=newsletter895403&t=14>http://www.alternet.org/economy/joe-stiglitz-people-who-break-rules-have-raked-huge-profits-and-wealth-and-its-sickening-our?akid=10916.1074389.nrq0ve&rd=1&src=newsletter895403&t=14
Excerpts:
You all know the facts: while the productivity of America's workers has
soared, wages have stagnated. You've worked hard since 1979, your output
per hour has increased 40%, but pay has barely increased. Meanwhile, the
top 1% take home more than 20% of the national income.
The Great Recession made things worse. Some say that the recession ended
in 2009. But for most Americans, that's simply wrong: 95% of the gains
from 2009 to 2012 went to the upper 1%. The rest the 99% never really
recovered.
Ed
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