Keith Hudson, I`am getting a bit bored by your economistic way of looking at workers life and work....you don`t seem to remember the stories of child labour, also mentioned in Marx`Capital. If you want to look at the real quality of life, you have to see the real difference in time invested in wage-labour and time free for playing...if you are a child.
John Graversgaard labour inspector Denmark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ed Weick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:47 PM Subject: Very gentle reminder to Ed (was Re: community and money > Hi Ed, > > At 12:06 27/12/01 -0500, you wrote: > (KH) > >> In much the same way as joining friendly societies, 95% of the workers of > >> those times also sent their children to fee-paying schools, and paid fees > >> to their local doctors' and hospitals' panels. > >> > >> The fees were moderate, and the workers could afford them because, during > >> the course of the Industrial Revolution -- never mind the highly selective > >> views of Dickens, Engels or Marx at that time -- their standard of living > >> was rising four or five-fold. > (EW) > >Just a very gentle reminder, Keith. Dickens, Engels and Marx were living in > >those times, you were not. > > Now matter how gentle your reminder, I must reply with facts. > > The following figures would be agreed by all economic historians (even if > Dickens, Engels and Marx were not aware of them): > > Average GDP in UK rose from less than �1,000 per head in 1800 to �4,500 per > head in 1900. > In 1800 the poorest 20% of the UK population were earning about �300 per > head -- one fifth of the earnings of the richest 20% at �1650 per head > The ratio was about the same in 1900. No increase in inequality. A gain by > all. Relatively, because from a much lower base, the poorest gained much > more substantially. > > A gentle reminder, Ed, that Dickens, Engels and Marx were individuals with > individual experiences in life and with individual motivations as to what, > and how, they wrote. > > Engels and Marx had axes to grind to make facts fit the theory. Engels fed > Marx with limited (northern England) statistics of poverty and mortality > that were already 30 years out of date. If he had used up-to-date figures > (and from London as well as the poorest parts of England), Marx could > never have "proved" the increasing pauperisation of the working class. 'Cos > it wasn't so! > > It wasn't so! There never has been such a growth of prosperity by ordinary > working people! There were great problems from time to time -- strikes and > lock-outs and all that -- and conditions were often grim. That was why the > working man girded himself with "middle-class" institutions such as > Friendly Societies and so on. But, generally, this was Eldorado compared > with the countryside work of the 18th century. > > Dickens had had a traumatic childhood. His father, John Dickens, was > arrested for debt. Charles was a boy then but even he had to appear before > the Official Appraiser to see whether he had excess clothing that could be > sold. He arrived in his only clothes, a white hat, small jacket and > corduroy trousers. John Dickens spent 14 weeks in Marshalsea (the debtors' > prison in London) before he was able to show that his debts were > unintentional. (I won't take up more space to describe this rat-ridden > place). Charles survived by hiding, and then pawning, his father's small > library of books. When this money ran out he then had a job pasting labels > in a blacking factory. Just about the dirtiest, least-paid job that could > be imagined. > > Can you wonder that Charles Dickens had such a jaundiced view of Victorian > England? > > Keith > > > > > > > > > >> > >> But, since the State takeover of charity, the 5% "unworthy" element (my > >> inference) of the population has now grown to something like 25% (my > >> present-day estimate) making unjustified claims in one way or another. > > > >I wonder how judgemental we should be here? I'm old enough to remember the > >Great Depression, and the enormous day by day struggle of the "unworthies" > >of those days, my father among them, to keep their families badly housed and > >barely fed. "Relief" was a last resort, but ever so many people had to use > >it, even though they hated to do so. > > > >I've done some work at a local food bank and encountered some of the > >"unworthies" of the present. Some are young immigrant mothers, perhaps the > >wives of guys like the Slovak immigrant who gets up at four in the morning > >to make sure I have my newspaper by five thirty. Some are middle-aged men > >from the Ottawa Valley whose local economy had changed radically, giving > >them, with their limited skills, no place to fit in. They had come to the > >city to look for work, but there was nothing here for them either. A few > >were students, trying to improve themselves, and looking for something to > >supplement their usual diet of Kraft Dinner. There were a few Native > >Indians trying to make sense of a world whose culture was alien to them. > >There may have been some people in that crowd that were in some sense > >"unworthy", but I would hesitate to try to identify them. > > > >> Fact: there is no longer enough money to pay for the continuation of the > >> Welfare State. Claims will always rise above tax income. > > > >I have no problem with the state being in the welfare business, the > >education business, the health business, etc., etc. In fact, I believe > >these things are its business, and should be paid for by a fair, progressive > >tax system. I personally deplore the current ideologically based campaign > >to weaken, erode and destroy many of the good services that the modern state > >has come to operate over the past two centuries. It's almost as though > >educating children has been placed in the same category as selling junk at > >Walmart. > > > >Ed Weick > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > "Writers used to write because they had something to say; now they write in > order to discover if they have something to say." John D. Barrow > _________________________________________________ > Keith Hudson, Bath, England; e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > _________________________________________________ >
